Author Topic: Another letter to Herts CC.  (Read 13427 times)

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Offline The Bald Eagle

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Another letter to Herts CC.
« on: 29 February, 2012, 05:04:00 PM »
BGB spotted the Islington adjudication (nice one BGB :aplude:) and me and him put this letter together. Let's see if this one does the trick. FYI I have contacted the HH Gazette and the reporter says he will contact the council to see if they have the special dispensation from the Secretary of State. If they haven't (and I'm extremely confident that they haven't ;D) then it is going to be extremely interesting to see how they react. I would love to be a fly on the Herts CC wall right now.

Last time I sent a letter to the head of the council I got an acknowledgment from Stuart Pile 8 minutes after sending it. This time I sent it directly to Stuart Pile, but still await any acknowledgment. Was it something we said? :-* :-* :-*

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From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: stuart.pile@hertscc.gov.uk
CC: caroline.tapster@hertscc.gov.uk; robert.gordon@hertscc.gov.uk; steve.johnson@hertscc.gov.uk; damian.ogbonnaya@hertscc.gov.uk
Subject: Moor End Road bus lane/gate
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:25:48 +0000

Dear Mr Pile

I write further to your letter to me dated 30 January 2012.

In it you state:

1. I have been advised by officers that we have used the correct signing to convey this restriction.

2."The signing we have used is in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) in that we have used a 'Motor Vehicles Prohibited’or 619 sign together with an ‘Exception’ plate variant or 620 sign. These signs in combination convey the restriction which the authority can enforce through the use of a camera."


The Diagram 620 sign to which you refer bears the wording "Except for access" and the permitted variants are listed in Schedule 16, item 38. "Except local buses and taxis" is not a permitted variant of the Diagram 620 sign.

I refer you to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, which states;

"64 General provisions as to traffic signs.E+W+S

(1) In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—

(a)specified by regulations made by the Ministers acting jointly, or

(b)authorised by the Secretary of State, and any line or mark on a road for so conveying such warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions.

(2)Traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulations as mentioned in subsection (1)(a) above except where the Secretary of State authorises the erection or retention of a sign of another character; and for the purposes of this subsection illumination, whether by lighting or by the use of reflectors or reflecting material, or the absence of such illumination, shall be part of the type or character of a sign." Emphasis added


I now refer you to an adjudication (2110645538, below) at the Parking and Traffic Appeal Service (Patas) which relates to the use of exception plates with diagram 619 signs (no entry for motor vehicles, or as it commonly known "the flying motorbike sign) that are used at Moor End Road. As you can see, the adjudicator decided that:

"Direction 21(1) in the TSRGD provides that a plate shown in a diagram whose number appears and is in the form (if any) specified in an item in column (2) of the Table may be placed on a road only in combination with a sign shown in a diagram whose number appears and is placed in the circumstances (if any) specified in column (3) of that item. At item 67, in column (2), the plate diagram number is 954.2 and in column (3) sign diagram number are 606, 609, 612, 613, 616, 629, 629A, 629.1 or 952. The sign prescribed by Diagram 954.2 in Schedule 5, 'Except local buses', cannot therefore be used in combination with the 'motor vehicles prohibited' sign of a type prescribed by Diagram 619 in Schedule 2.

Whilst substantial compliance with TSRGD is now required, I find that in this case substantial compliance cannot arise when patently incorrect signs are used."
Emphasis added

Although the Moor End Road exception plates (except for buses and taxis (a permitted variant of diagram 954.3 except for the word "for" which should not be used)) differ slightly to the ones referred to in the Islington appeal (except local buses (diagram 954.2)), I have checked the TSRGD and have concluded that as with the Islington case there is no provision within the TSRGD for the Moor End Road exception plates to be used in combination with a Diagram 619 sign. Consequently, and as the NoToMob have maintained throughout, the signs at Moor End Road are not allowed in law and are therefore unenforceable.

Unless you can provide us with a copy of your official application to the DfT for permission to use sign combinations not contained in the TSRGD, and a copy the Secretary of State's letter granting such permission, the NoToMob are calling on you to confirm that you have immediately ceased enforcement at Moor End Road pending an investigation into signs and lines at the site.

If there is no such permission from the Secretary of State, it would appear that you have been misinformed by your officers.

Kindly acknowledge safe receipt.

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Case Reference: 2110645538
Appellant: Mr Francis Brown
Authority: Islington
VRM: P949MKE
PCN: IS24996795
Contravention Date: 15 Oct 2011
Contravention Time: 15:55
Contravention Location: Morris Place N4
Penalty Amount: £130.00
Contravention: Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
Decision Date: 07 Feb 2012
Adjudicator: Michael Nathan
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: This is a personal appeal attended by the Appellant. The Enforcement Authority did not appear and was not represented. It is claimed that the Appellant had failed to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle. The alleged contravention occurred at 15:55 on Saturday 15 October 2011 at Morris Place, N4. A Penalty Charge Notice was issued by post after camera observation.

I have carefully considered the Enforcement Authority's evidence, including their CCTV footage, location and signage details and case report, and observed that it was recorded that the Appellant had driven past a sign plate indicating a prohibition on motor vehicles, with a supplemental sign plate referring to an exception for local buses.

In his representations, the Appellant claimed that he had not seen the signs and referred to his inherited medical condition, in relation to which he filed a copy of a letter dated 1 November 2010 from Homerton Hospital and, in his appeal details, he referred to his disability and the onset of an emergency situation which he described fully.

He does not dispute that he drove past the signs but, in order that the prohibition may be enforced, I must first be satisfied that the signs were lawful. The Enforcement Authority has supported its assertion that the signs in place were correctly sited by referring to the recent judgment in the case of The Queen on the Application of Herron and Parking Appeals Limited -v- The Parking Adjudicator [2011] EWCA Civ 905.

I have therefore carefully considered the adequacy of the signs. The CCTV images show two 'motor vehicles prohibited' signs of a type prescribed by Diagram 619 in Schedule 2 to Part I of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (TSRGD), with the plate below stating 'Except local buses', being a sign of type prescribed by Diagram 954.2 in Schedule 5.

Direction 21(1) in the TSRGD provides that a plate shown in a diagram whose number appears and is in the form (if any) specified in an item in column (2) of the Table may be placed on a road only in combination with a sign shown in a diagram whose number appears and is placed in the circumstances (if any) specified in column (3) of that item. At item 67, in column (2), the plate diagram number is 954.2 and in column (3) sign diagram number are 606, 609, 612, 613, 616, 629, 629A, 629.1 or 952. The sign prescribed by Diagram 954.2 in Schedule 5, 'Except local buses', cannot therefore be used in combination with the 'motor vehicles prohibited' sign of a type prescribed by Diagram 619 in Schedule 2.

Whilst substantial compliance with TSRGD is now required, I find that in this case substantial compliance cannot arise when patently incorrect signs are used. I do therefore propose to consider the merits or otherwise of the other issues raised by the Appellant. The appeal is allowed.

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« Last Edit: 08 March, 2012, 12:18:07 PM by The Bald Eagle »
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Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #1 on: 01 March, 2012, 10:52:37 AM »
Received 10.47 today. ;D

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Dear Mr xxxxxxxxxxxx,

Thank you for your email.  I will reply once I have consulted with officers.

Regards,
 
Cllr Stuart Pile
 
Executive Member for Highways & Transport
 
Hertfordshire County Council
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Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #2 on: 01 March, 2012, 10:55:52 AM »
A quick acknowledgement so far so good.  :idea:
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #3 on: 01 March, 2012, 11:04:10 AM »
A quick acknowledgement so far so good.  :idea:

If they continue with their usual stance, a quick acknowledgment will equal an even quicker denial of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

However, unless they have the Secretary of State's specific permission to use the signs, I honestly can't see how they can get round this one... <_>
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Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #4 on: 01 March, 2012, 11:07:05 AM »
Lets hope I get my hearing soon :-ev-:
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline BGB

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #5 on: 01 March, 2012, 02:02:27 PM »
An FoI to Herts CC today.

"Dear Hertfordshire County Council,

Would you please provide, as required under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, promptly and in any event within 20 working days:

Copies of the Secretary of State for Transport's Directions/authorisation in respect of the Moor End Road, Hemel Hempstead bus lanes/routes.

Regards

"

Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #6 on: 01 March, 2012, 02:51:32 PM »
An FoI to Herts CC today.

"Dear Hertfordshire County Council,

Would you please provide, as required under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, promptly and in any event within 20 working days:

Copies of the Secretary of State for Transport's Directions/authorisation in respect of the Moor End Road, Hemel Hempstead bus lanes/routes.

Regards

"


Ooooh I like that. dr00L
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #7 on: 05 March, 2012, 08:09:35 PM »
I will be writing to Mr Pile with the bad news shortly. ;D

Thanks to BGB for this. :aplude:

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Dear Mr xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On 2nd March 2012, Hertfordshire County Council received your clarified request for information from you:

"Copies of the Secretary of State for Transport's Directions/authorisation in respect of the non-prescribed [by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002] traffic signs and road markings at Moor End Road, Hemel Hempstead bus lanes/routes."

Your request for information has been considered under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. I can confirm that Hertfordshire County Council
does hold the information you have requested and can respond as follows:
 
No signs have received special authorisation from the Secretary of State for use in Moor End Road, Hemel Hempstead bus lanes/routes; all are standard, statutory signage.

The road markings are advisory for the signage used, are not mandatory and don't require Department of Transport authorisation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"....all are standard, statutory signage". Well I've got news for them....



GAME OVER
« Last Edit: 05 March, 2012, 08:31:17 PM by The Bald Eagle »
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Nigel W

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #8 on: 05 March, 2012, 08:22:18 PM »
The following or similar will be ringing in their ears before long.

"Whilst substantial compliance with TSRGD is now required, I find that in this case (and tens of thousands of others) substantial compliance cannot arise when patently incorrect signs are used."

Get Ready With The Refunds.
« Last Edit: 05 March, 2012, 08:24:39 PM by Nigel W »

Offline jonesy

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #9 on: 05 March, 2012, 09:32:37 PM »
Well we (you) did try to tell them :bashy: :bashy: but would they listen  :pmsl: :pmsl:

Offline Coco

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #10 on: 05 March, 2012, 09:38:35 PM »
Methinks it's time to load and aim our accounts challenging team ready to fire at this year's accounts!

Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #11 on: 05 March, 2012, 09:45:46 PM »
"No signs have received special authorisation from the Secretary of State for use in Moor End Road, Hemel Hempstead bus lanes/routes; all are standard, statutory signage."

Oh dear! oh dear! oh very fecking dear! and be under no illusions HH it bloody well will be very dear. :-ev-: :-ev-: :-ev-: :pmsl: :pmsl: :pmsl:
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline kiwi

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #12 on: 05 March, 2012, 11:22:14 PM »
As the wise would say .... "let them fcuk'in av it"

Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #13 on: 05 March, 2012, 11:43:55 PM »
As the wise would say .... "let them fcuk'in av it"

Oh yes Kiwi they are going to be well and truly fcuked. I think they need to get in some stocks of KY jell to prepare for the pain of what is about to happen to them. Lets call it Preparation HH. :-ev-:
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline seggsy

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Re: Another letter to Herts CC.
« Reply #14 on: 05 March, 2012, 11:57:06 PM »
Well they are about to find out that it might be a good idea to listen and not lecture  :bashy: :bashy:.
I so look forward to them having to return every last penny they have illegally extracted from the good people of Hemel Hempstead.
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Politicians doncha just 'ate em