Author Topic: West George St Glasgow - bus gate - $chunt 23/8/14 - how to challenge tickets  (Read 11651 times)

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Offline The Bald Eagle

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I had seen reports of a bus lane/gate in Glasgow that was generating 700 tickets a day (700 x £60 = £42k per day) and the $chunter in me was mortally offended by a council that was so blatantly ripping off its visitors. So I decided to pop along to see what was going on first hand.

Having spoken to many interested parties while I stood on the corner helping to divert at least 250 motorists from committing the offence in 4 hours, the depth of the council's cynicism was even worse than I first thought. I would add that although I managed to save many, I estimate that for every four I managed to divert, a fifth sailed past completely oblivious to me and the signs. In the immortal words of Killswitch, “You win some, and the council win some more.”

It seems that the bus gate was installed immediately before the Commonwealth games when they knew there would be an influx of drivers not only from Scotland, but from all over the country and the world, the vast majority of whom would be blindly following satnavs. And before you say it, I know it is no excuse to say you were following your satnav but when you see the state of the signs I'm sure you will agree that this is irrelevant.

Where do I begin? First, I am reliably informed that the signs are wrong in that they don't comply with the TSRGD. And before you ask, yes the TSRGD does apply in Scotland unless the Scottish Ministers sanction them separately (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/8/made).

This is what I am told is wrong with the signs:

1) The 932 (Bus Gate) Sign MUST have a 932.2 (Only) plate.
2) The time plate should be “except” times not operational times.
3) The authorised vehicles plate should be “except authorised vehicles”.
4) Guidance suggests that there should be no more than 3 plates on a post and should not exceed 4m high.





Here are the signs in their full glory.









As you can see from all the photos the signs are clearly inadequate, as is evidenced by the number of motorists who are simply not seeing them. Drivers turning left or right into West George Street from West Nile Street only get one advance warning notice that can easily be obscured by a parked van or lorry.

Drivers travelling on West George Street directly towards the bus gate have the same problem which is exacerbated by the council putting the new sign behind a “Pay and display” sign (see West George Street looking east towards bus gate 5 & 6).





Unfortunately we know nothing about the independent adjudication service in Scotland, nor do we know what legislation the Glasgow council thieves are using to rob people blind. If anyone can throw some light on this I would be most grateful.

Anyway, back to the $chunt. The vast majority of drivers I managed to divert were approaching the bus gate head on down West George Street, which is a one way street. Much of the time the road markings were covered by traffic, mainly the buses and taxis who can legitimately use the bus gate.



The taxis in Glasgow add to motorist's confusion because they look like ordinary cars unless you know to look for the license badge. Unfortunately this can be placed on different parts of the car depending on the whim of the operator. In fact, sometimes I was trying to persuade taxi drivers to go round because it was not clear from the front that they were taxis, but they didn't seem to mind.

In fact the support I got was more or less the same as on any $chunt daaarn sarf, with many bus and taxi drivers and ordinary drivers giving me the thumbs up or a toot on the horn (steady Ewan).

Then came the inevitable coppers. <Whistle>  The first I knew of their presence was when I got a tap on the shoulder, but they had obviously been watching me for some time because they told me as much.

The younger, stroppy one took the lead. “Excuse me sir, do you mind if we have a word” (Yeh, like I had a choice).

“By all means” says I all smiles and receptive like.

“Take off your mask and remove your earphones.” This was a command not a request, but since I was breaking new ground in what may soon be a foreign country, I thought discretion may be the better part of valour. I complied.

Me: “Is there a problem?”

Young gun: “We have been watching you because we have had a couple of phone calls from drivers to say that they had come close to running you over”

Me: “Really? I can't think of any near misses although some of the buses turning left do get very near to the kerb.” At this point the more experienced of the two stepped in.

Plod 2: Yes we noticed that when we were watching you and we saw that you do not step into the road at any point. Anyway, what are you up to?

I then went on to tell them of all the Mob's efforts south of the border. They listened intently, as did the small crowd that had started to gather. Lipping the coppers in Glasgow is a national sport, and a few of those in the crowd were looking for an opportunity to join in the game. One drunk guy in a thick Glaswegian accent piped up from the back (from where he couldn't possibly hear what was being said), “Lea' hem alowne. He's no dun any en wrong”. Scottish people. Don't you just love 'em. ;D

Once I had had my say the youngster had one last go at trying to undermine my credibility.

Young gun: “But there are signs further up the road warning drivers, so why do you need to be here?”

I was ready for him. “Because 700 hundred drivers a day aren't seeing the signs, that's why. Do you really think that 700 drivers a day deliberately set out to get fined?”

This finished all resistance from young gun, and I could sense from his demeanour that he was a beaten copper. So could the crowd. <Yes!>

Up stepped the voice of experience who spoke loud enough for all to hear. “Well I don't think you are doing anything wrong as long as you don't step off the kerb. You can carry on holding out your sign and warning drivers, but please try not to cause any accidents.”

Me: “I think that goes without saying officer, but of course I will bear it in mind.”

And with that they were gone, leaving me to deal with all the handshakes from the crowd for getting a win at their national sport. “Well done mate. Keep it up.” was the favourite comment, and I will always remember the drunk guy's sly smile when he shook my hand as we watched the coppers disappear round the corner into Nelson Mandela Place. He didn't care about the issues. All he knew was that someone had put put one over on the polis.

Hehehehehehehe ;D

<dancingbanana> <dancingbanana2> <Yes!> <dancingbanana> <dancingbanana2> <Yes!> <Woohooo>
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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  • Veni, Vidi, $chunti. I came, I saw, I assisted.
Well done $chunting oop in bonny Glasgy ye wee sassenach $chunter. Sticking it tae the local bawbags* must have givven ye a warm feeling as ye wee horn was tooted.  :aplude:

*Bawbag noun

Chiefly scottish, used to describe a local councillor.
"The cabinet member for transport's a reet bawbag
if ever I saw one"
Plural: bawbags, a full council chamber.


Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline Pat Pending

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 <dancingbanana2> Fantastic BE truly epic!  <dancingbanana2>
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline DastardlyDick

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Having had a swift Google, the Appeals process appears to be identical to the rest of the UK - appeal to Council and when/if they reject go to Independant Appeal which is called the Scottish Parking Appeals Service (SPAS). They don't seem to have a website.
The legislation would appear to be the Road Traffic Act 1991 (Ammendment of Schedule 3) (Scotland) Order 1998.
I also found this:-
"Twelve Scottish local authorities currently operate DPE, primarily in the more urban areas of central Scotland. Two further local authorities (Argyll and Bute, and Inverclyde) have applied to Scottish Ministers for DPE powers and are currently going through that process. The remaining eighteen local authorities have yet to formally pursue DPE and have, until recently, continued to rely on their local police traffic wardens to enforce the law and issue penalty notices.
 
A recent announcement by Police Scotland confirmed there would be an end to the police traffic warden role from 3 February 2014. This followed months of consultation with councils, staff and partners. The overarching message from Police Scotland in relation to this decision is that it will be vital for them to make sure they are delivering a consistent and professional service and that they are targeting the priority issues in order to keep communities safe. As a result, the traffic warden service has been removed by Police Scotland. This has left local authorities who had previously relied on the police to enforce parking regulations with no legal power to enforce the law or issue penalties.
 
A collaborative approach to delivering DPE in local authority areas where this has been deemed desirable is considered by the programme board to be the optimum solution to benefit from associated efficiency gains and utilise best-practice from those authorities already delivering a DPE service. The project will also address the issue of the requirement to update Traffic Regulation Orders, in order to legally enforce penalties.
 
Outline Business Case
 
By working collaboratively to deliver DPE, there are potential efficiency savings to be made within local authorities from economies of scale, whether that is via the sharing of frontline staff or back office function. This could be the case for authorities already delivering DPE as well as those only developing this service now.
 
Savings would be made by having a single tendering exercise for consultants to update Traffic Regulation Orders.
 
There is an opportunity to learn from best practice by reviewing the processes and systems in place within local authorities already delivering a DPE service. By developing relationships between those who currently deliver DPE could allow for the identification of best practice and knowledge transfer to support the implementation of a proven high standard of service delivery among multiple authorities.
 
By creating a single service or cluster of services among authorities now implementing DPE there is an opportunity to develop a single back-office function as well as frontline operation which could offer a high level and continuity of service via one-stop-shop delivery.
 
Current Status of Project
 •A project steering group has been formed within COSLA with representatives from all local authorities, with a remit to review the outputs of the project
 •A smaller working group has also been established, who have now met to agree the scope of the project and the specification to carry out an options appraisal to review collaborative options
 •Negotiations are underway with a specialist supplier with experience in designing DPE delivery solutions, to finalise a contract for appraising options
 •Local authority roads services have been asked to complete two surveys to gather high-level information on status of delivering/implementing DPE and appetite to share services in this area, as well as understanding issues relating to updating TROs and appetite to do so on a collaborative basis
 
This project is due to be delivered in September 2014.

Last Updated ( Monday, 07 July 2014 14:58 ) "

I'll keep looking.





« Last Edit: 17 September, 2014, 11:37:06 AM by DastardlyDick »

Offline The Bald Eagle

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We need to find someone who has had a ticket in this bus lane, and if possible obtain a copy of the ticket that is redacted of personal information. The ticket will give details of the legislation the council are relying on to enforce.

Please keep your eyes open on places like Pepipoo and Consumer Action Group for people posting on this subject. <Thumbsup>
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline DastardlyDick

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We need to find someone who has had a ticket in this bus lane, and if possible obtain a copy of the ticket that is redacted of personal information. The ticket will give details of the legislation the council are relying on to enforce.

Please keep your eyes open on places like Pepipoo and Consumer Action Group for people posting on this subject. <Thumbsup>


Your wish is my command!   <Notworthy>

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=19938

As you will see they call the PCNs a "Bus Lane Enforcement Charge Notice".

The Legislation cited is the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 and The Bus Lanes Contraventions (Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (Scotland) Regulations 2011 ("The Regs"). They were passed as Scottish Statutory Instrument 2011 No. 442 on 19th December 2011 and came into force on 6th February 2012.

My apologies if my previous post misled anyone.  :schucks:
« Last Edit: 18 September, 2014, 12:27:06 AM by DastardlyDick »

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Thanks for the offer Dick but if I want to be misled, I'll get a professional to do it.


Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline The Bald Eagle

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We need to find someone who has had a ticket in this bus lane, and if possible obtain a copy of the ticket that is redacted of personal information. The ticket will give details of the legislation the council are relying on to enforce.

Please keep your eyes open on places like Pepipoo and Consumer Action Group for people posting on this subject. <Thumbsup>


Your wish is my command!   <Notworthy>

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=19938

As you will see they call the PCNs a "Bus Lane Enforcement Charge Notice".

The Legislation cited is the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001 and The Bus Lanes Contraventions (Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (Scotland) Regulations 2011 ("The Regs"). They were passed as Scottish Statutory Instrument 2011 No. 442 on 19th December 2011 and came into force on 6th February 2012.

My apologies if my previous post misled anyone.  :schucks:


Excellent. Thanks Dick. <Thumbsup>
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline DastardlyDick

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Thanks for the offer Dick but if I want to be misled, I'll get a professional to do it.




Thanks Ewan - I will never acheive Mr Patrick "choccy trouser fire" Troy's level of expertise in the field of misleading.

EDW2000

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without 'Only' its unenforceable.

Start by emailing a complaint to the council.


Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: West George St Glasgow - bus gate - $chunt 23/8/14 - how to challenge tickets
« Reply #10 on: 18 September, 2014, 03:42:42 PM »
without 'Only' its unenforceable.

Start by emailing a complaint to the council.


Before we do anything I suggest we wait and see which way today's vote goes. If it's a YES then to use the immortal words of Delboy



WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: West George St Glasgow - bus gate - $chunt 23/8/14 - how to challenge tickets
« Reply #11 on: 21 September, 2014, 07:49:23 PM »
I've also found that the CCTV Cameras used to enforce these Bus Lanes are covered by "The Bus Lane (Approved Devices)(Scotland) Order 2010".

 


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