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Council Specific & Schunt Reports => Westminster => Topic started by: Esinem on 05 January, 2011, 02:25:44 AM

Title: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Esinem on 05 January, 2011, 02:25:44 AM
St Martin's Lane. Before and after pics. Note the disappearing L-shaped arrow sign.
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: chalky on 05 January, 2011, 05:23:00 PM
Those pictures got any dates to go with them?
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Esinem on 05 January, 2011, 08:56:23 PM
Bottom one was 4 Jan 2011

Here's the TMO
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Esinem on 10 January, 2011, 01:42:17 PM
The interesting thing is Para 2 which says that the offence is turning right into St Martins' Place:dancing:

The maps I have looked at are a little confusing but it appears that St Martin's La leads onto Charring Cross Rd, NOT St Martin's Pl, in spite of the sign on the wall of The International building that says it is! Another invalid offence? I am awaiting confirmation from WCC's transport planning dept of what is the definitive map.
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Staps on 10 January, 2011, 08:45:55 PM
Does cause or permit only mean when you are in control of the vehicle, Surely if the $camera cars are supposed to be a deterrent and are on duty at that junction are they not permitting the vehicle to make the turn when they could be doing the notomobs job and stopping the vehicle from making the turn. Just a thought.
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Esinem on 18 January, 2011, 05:35:11 PM
Latest exchange with Sean Dwyer at WCC:

Thank you for your reply. The building on the site you assume to be 10 St Martin's Place appears to be occupied by The International. The address of this property is shown in all instances that I can find as 116 St Martin's Lane, no internet searches produce a result for 10 St Martin’s Place. Do you have anything definitive like a Land Registry document to back up your assertion as it is not supported by the main on-line mapping systems?

Google maps show this section as King William IV St

[MAP]

Bing (Ordnance Survey view) shows it as Charing Cross Road

[MAP]

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dwyer, Sean [mailto:sdwyer@westminster.gov.uk]
Sent: 18 January 2011 11:02
To: bruce@artisanwoodfloors.com
Cc: Amanda Jones; Info
Subject: FW: Traffic Management Order GLA 2002 No.546

Bruce

Your original e-mail has been passed to me.

For reference, I attach a copy of the order.

With reference to the plan on the second page, the numbers 6, 7 and 8 are to 6, 7 and 8 St Martin's Place. I don't know what's happened to number 9, but my understanding is that the numbering then continues to number 10, i.e. if you were to turn right out of St Martin's Lane you pass 10 St Martin's Place, before you get to Charing Cross Road, the address of what is marked as a "Bank" being 2b Charing Cross Road.

I agree the street numbering is confusing and this probably makes signing difficult too, but I do think the Order is correct in that the banned right-turn is a turn into St Martin's Place.

I hope that helps.

Sean Dwyer


Sean Dwyer
Highways Planning Manager
Highways Planning Team
Development Planning

Built Environment
Westminster City Council
12th Floor
64 Victoria Street
London
SW1E 6QP
Phone:  020-7641-3326
Fax:      020-7641-3989
Email:   sdwyer@westminster.gov.uk
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Pat Pending on 18 January, 2011, 07:33:15 PM
Now when I was doing the Knowledge this is how I was told to call it. It was St Martins Place to the junction with St Martins Lane then changed to William IV St. So if you came from St Martins Lane the Left would be William IV St the Right would be St Martins Pl.
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Esinem on 20 January, 2011, 01:28:04 AM
The premises on the corner of St M, which adjoins 2b Charing Cross Road, is now called Prezzo, not The International. There is an entrance to flats between the two and these are the floors above Prezzo. Smokers outside gave the address of the flats as 116 St Martin's La. I have a card from Prezzo with the address 116 St Martin's La, WC2N 4BF

@Pat_Pending  Do you have a map to back that up?  Admittedly, there is a sign saying St Martin's Pl but it was put there by WCC and we know how reliable their signs are.

Google results for 116 St Martin's Lane: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Gnz&rls=en&q=116+St+Martin%27s+Lane&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= (http://http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Gnz&rls=en&q=116+St+Martin%27s+Lane&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)

Google results for 10 St Martin's Place: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=10+St+Martin%27s+Place&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= (http://http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=10+St+Martin%27s+Place&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)

Interesting bias towards 116 St Martin's Lane and not much support for the existence of 10 St Martin's Place
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: peperami gsxr on 20 January, 2011, 07:47:29 AM
Would it be worth a visit to the local postoffice, (heading from St martins, towards Charing x nick)?
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Coco on 20 January, 2011, 08:59:05 AM
The following link shows the map according to WCCs planning Dept. (and I believe that they are the authority when it comes to streetnames)

http://www3.westminster.gov.uk/fmn/index3.cfm?LayerID=70&querylayer=Planning%20Cases&queryString=10/00703/LBC&queryfield=refval&theScale=1250&showposition=middle (http://http://www3.westminster.gov.uk/fmn/index3.cfm?LayerID=70&querylayer=Planning%20Cases&queryString=10/00703/LBC&queryfield=refval&theScale=1250&showposition=middle)
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Pat Pending on 20 January, 2011, 11:56:45 AM
Quote from: "Esinem"
The premises on the corner of St M, which adjoins 2b Charing Cross Road, is now called Prezzo, not The International. There is an entrance to flats between the two and these are the floors above Prezzo. Smokers outside gave the address of the flats as 116 St Martin's La. I have a card from Prezzo with the address 116 St Martin's La, WC2N 4BF

@Pat_Pending  Do you have a map to back that up?  Admittedly, there is a sign saying St Martin's Pl but it was put there by WCC and we know how reliable their signs are.

Google results for 116 St Martin's Lane: [url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Gnz&rls=en&q=116+St+Martin%27s+Lane&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/url] ([url]http://http[/url]://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Gnz&rls=en&q=116+St+Martin%27s+Lane&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)

Google results for 10 St Martin's Place: [url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=10+St+Martin%27s+Place&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/url] ([url]http://http[/url]://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=10+St+Martin%27s+Place&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)

Interesting bias towards 116 St Martin's Lane and not much support for the existence of 10 St Martin's Place
[/
Quote from: "Esinem"
The premises on the corner of St M, which adjoins 2b Charing Cross Road, is now called Prezzo, not The International. There is an entrance to flats between the two and these are the floors above Prezzo. Smokers outside gave the address of the flats as 116 St Martin's La. I have a card from Prezzo with the address 116 St Martin's La, WC2N 4BF

@Pat_Pending  Do you have a map to back that up?  Admittedly, there is a sign saying St Martin's Pl but it was put there by WCC and we know how reliable their signs are.

Google results for 116 St Martin's Lane: [url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Gnz&rls=en&q=116+St+Martin%27s+Lane&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/url] ([url]http://http[/url]://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&hs=Gnz&rls=en&q=116+St+Martin%27s+Lane&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)

Google results for 10 St Martin's Place: [url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=10+St+Martin%27s+Place&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=[/url] ([url]http://http[/url]://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&q=10+St+Martin%27s+Place&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=)

Interesting bias towards 116 St Martin's Lane and not much support for the existence of 10 St Martin's Place


Sorry no map It was how we were told to call it, However this could just be because a sign had been placed on the wall saying St Martins Pl.
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Coco on 20 January, 2011, 01:37:27 PM
I don't know quite what to make of all this! The pre 2000 planning applications made in connection with the apartments above what is now Prezzo refer to the property variously as 9/10 St Martins Place/116 St Martins Lane or just 10 St Martins Place. Planning applications since 2000 including those made last year refer to 116 St Martins Lane only; and one of the plans shows the street as William IV Street!  Perhaps it is only the ground floor that  has the 116 St Martins Lane address whilst the upper floors are 10 St Martins Place?
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: Esinem on 20 January, 2011, 10:16:27 PM
I would say the definitive document source has to be the Land Registry. You don't rely on the council's maps when you convey property, only Land Reg. Alex of BBW seems to agree and he's a barrister. I suggest we put the onus of proof on WCC. Maybe Amanda Jones can clarify this?
Title: Re: St Martin's Lane
Post by: rs2k on 22 January, 2011, 06:37:35 PM
Quote from: "Esinem"
I would say the definitive document source has to be the Land Registry. You don't rely on the council's maps when you convey property, only Land Reg. Alex of BBW seems to agree and he's a barrister. I suggest we put the onus of proof on WCC. Maybe Amanda Jones can clarify this?

How about ordnance survey maps ?  are they not what the council rely on also ?  I know most mapping is done using these