notomob.co.uk
General Category => General No To Mob Discussion => Topic started by: scalyback on 12 August, 2017, 12:31:06 PM
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I have just had an idea for my vehicle, signs that say, "By allowing me to park here, you agree to pay a charge of £200 in the event of this vehicle receiving a PCN from this parking event."
It's contract law isn't it? I just have to stick them inside all the windows just before I enter. Even better if they appear in one of those 'evidence' photos.
If I park somewhere and they have (good) signs, it forms a contract whether or not I bother to read them. If I park there with my signs, it forms a contract whether or not they bother to read them. Has to work both ways doesn't it?
Come on guys... have I cracked it? :idea:
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I have just had an idea for my vehicle, signs that say, "By allowing me to park here, you agree to pay a charge of £200 in the event of this vehicle receiving a PCN from this parking event."
It's contract law isn't it? I just have to stick them inside all the windows just before I enter. Even better if they appear in one of those 'evidence' photos.
If I park somewhere and they have (good) signs, it forms a contract whether or not I bother to read them. If I park there with my signs, it forms a contract whether or not they bother to read them. Has to work both ways doesn't it?
Come on guys... have I cracked it? :idea:hey just
I think you've been reading too many "Freeman on the Land" type websites - the only way to find out is to take it to Court, which could prove expensive.
The FotL brigade don't "do" Court - they either string it out in the hope that the PPC will decide it's not worth the effort which they then trumpet it as a "win" or just pay up and keep quiet.
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Well, I was just thinking that if they take me to court for non-payment they have a choice, either argue that as I didn't read their sign, that their charge is valid in which case, as they didn't read my signs, my contract is valid... OR they can say that as I didn't read their signs then the contract is invalid... Either way I win. Either I pay their charge and they pay mine, OR they agree that their charge is invalid by not reading the signs then so is mine.....
What is 'freeman on the land'? I not think I been reading that (Live in France most the time.)
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An interesting concept that could prove expensive if it went wrong.
On the one hand, rather than issue your own proceedings you could wait until they issue proceedings against you and then counterclaim based on your own "contract". However, if you got it wrong you could well find yourself facing a sizeable claim for costs if the District Judge thought you were a chancer trying to buck the system.
On the other hand, he/she may allow your counterclaim, but it would set a very dangerous precedent that an industry with extremely deep pockets could not allow to stand. Consequently it would be appealed all the way. And we all know what happened to Barry Beavis when the Lords got hold of it. And if you thought the costs of a small claim were significant...
You would be well advised to get a legal professional's opinion before testing what may prove to be an expensive jape.
I know it's unfair, but that's the system we have to work with. It seems it's only those with deep pockets that have a real shot at justice.
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Also, how would it work if you were in an ANPR controlled car park?
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What is 'freeman on the land'? I not think I been reading that (Live in France most the time.)
My understanding is that these "Freemen" think that Acts of Parliament are a contract, which they have to agree to - unsurprisingly, they only agree with the ones that suit them at the time, with most of them liking the ones that give them our Tax money for sitting around doing sod all. There are a few "gurus" around, who do very nicely out of selling this nonsense to desperate, vulnerable people, the main one being Robert Menard from Canada although he's been quiet recently as he (allegedly) has a Canada-wide warrant out for his arrest on fraud charges!
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Well, in an Anpr car park, if they don't bother to provide a way to check for a provision of contract from a visitor, then how can they expect to make their own contract with the same visitor? A contract is between two parties. They do it by signs. I would do it by signs. It's up to me to read their signs and it's also up to them to have somebody or something available to read my signs.
I think......
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Well, in an Anpr car park, if they don't bother to provide a way to check for a provision of contract from a visitor, then how can they expect to make their own contract with the same visitor? A contract is between two parties. They do it by signs. I would do it by signs. It's up to me to read their signs and it's also up to them to have somebody or something available to read my signs.
I think......
I think the learned Mr Eagle has it right - you need to seek professional legal advice from someone who specialises in this area of Law.
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I think the learned Mr Eagle has it right - you need to seek professional legal advice from someone who specialises in this area of Law.
Well, it was just a thought, but do we know anybody that could take a look at the idea?
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Wouldn't it be invalid to try form a contract on land you have no jurisdiction over....?
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If the contract involved use of the land then yes, but as it only involved a payment resulting from the issuing of a PCN, then no. Bit like making a contract with somebody in the pub. You don't have to own the pub!
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But you are using the land - to park on.
I'm sure somebody will correct me, but until Beavis, I believe it was held that a notice could not form a Contract.
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I go back to my point about the problems you would have in an ANPR controlled car park.
In order for there to be a valid contract there must be a meeting of the minds. This is a basic principle of contract law and unless a judge is satisfied that there has been an offer and acceptance between the contracting parties, he will not accept that a contract has been formed.
When you enter an ANPR controlled car park you will be greeted with a copy of a contract that you can accept or reject. If you accept it by parking, and then breach the terms, you can expect the full weight of the Beavis judgment to be hefted at you if the matter went to court.
In Scalyback's scenario he would put his own contract in the windows of his car, where there would be no opportunity for the operator of an ANPR controlled car park to read it and to accept or reject the offer. Consequently there would be no meeting of the minds and no contract would have been entered into.
QED (or did I miss something? <_>)
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Sounds about right to me
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how would that work if we got these new driverless cars the gov. keep mentioning? There would be no driver to read the signs.
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how would that work if we got these new driverless cars the gov. keep mentioning? There would be no driver to read the signs.
Driverless cars throw up a whole range of issues like this.
For example, do you need a driving licence to sit in a car not under your control?
How about insurance? If the car is involved in a collision that is not your fault, who is to blame? It can't be you, so why would you need insurance?
According to a professor I once heard giving a lecture to parking industry wea$els, you will be able to send the car off to find the nearest parking spot without anyone at the controls. What if it parked on double yellows or in a disabled bay? Would you be liable for the ticket?
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how would that work if we got these new driverless cars the gov. keep mentioning? There would be no driver to read the signs.
At the moment, the person using the vehicle is still presumed to be "in charge" of it, so no change, as you have 'told' the vehicle to go there.
In the future who knows? Maybe no one will own the vehicles and they'll drop you off at your destination and then go to pick someone else up, or off to some central parking area.