Author Topic: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines  (Read 12964 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Bald Eagle

  • Administrator
  • Follower
  • *****
  • Posts: 4402
  • THE lowest common denominator
DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« on: 04 March, 2012, 06:11:25 PM »
Search for the authority you want to look at to see whether they have special authorisation to use signs not prescribed in the TSRGD

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?page=1

And here is the TSRDG link

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/made
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Nigel W

  • Guest
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #1 on: 04 March, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »
No sign of any special authorisation for Bucks County Councils wheeze at Moor End Lane.

No sign of any special authorisation for Dacorum Borough Council on whose patch it is on either.

Offline BGB

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 662
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #2 on: 04 March, 2012, 06:45:42 PM »
No sign of any special authorisation for Bucks County Councils wheeze at Moor End Lane.

No sign of any special authorisation for Dacorum Borough Council on whose patch it is on either.


Hemel Hempstead here;

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-2995.pdf

from 2nd February 2012

Offline Ewan Hoosami

  • Administrator
  • Follower
  • *****
  • Posts: 2227
  • Veni, Vidi, $chunti. I came, I saw, I assisted.
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #3 on: 04 March, 2012, 06:57:38 PM »
My calendar is broken. Is the 2nd February 2012 after they started issuing PCNs?

                    
Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline The Bald Eagle

  • Administrator
  • Follower
  • *****
  • Posts: 4402
  • THE lowest common denominator
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #4 on: 04 March, 2012, 07:45:10 PM »
Before you get too distracted, we already knew about the application for the new signs through previous FoI requests.

They have applied for, and been granted (on 2nd February 2012) special permission to use NO ENTRY signs (diagram 616) with exception plates. However, they also need special permission to use NO ENTRY TO MOTOR VEHICLES signs (diagram 619 "flying motorbike") with exception plates (see attached photo), and according to the DfT site they haven't got it.

Therefore, unless the DfT have made a mistake, it means that Herts CC have issued over 35,000 illegal demands for money based on the fact that the signs currently in place are unenforceable.

This will illicit a nice little WE TOLD YOU SO letter in the shape of a demand that Herts CC pay back all of their illegally derived income. ;D

And by the way, we still have some other issues that we want to discuss with them about enforceability issues they may have, even if they change the signs and lines in accordance with their special permissions. Let's hope that this time they accept our invitation to chat about things.
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline The Phoenix

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #5 on: 11 March, 2012, 12:33:27 PM »
Within this context, may I ask a question re the infamous offside Bus Lane at Shepherds Bush Road Southbound i.e. the one that accounts for about two thirds of all bus lane revenue in Hammersmith and Fulham?  Briefly, I represented a guy last year but the PATAS hearing never took place because H & F withdrew quite some time before.  My main argument was the fact that the signage was rather contradictory to the DfT authorisation - I do have the complete authorisation, plans, diagrams and correspondence between council and DfT.  Surely, therefore, the council have acted unlawfully in this regard?

I tried this angle when I appealed for costs which, of course, fell upon deaf ears.  The adjudicator merely argued that, because the authority had withdrawn, this was an end to the matter and that I should re-terate my concerns to the authority again!  Any views would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

Also, what is the legal position when the DfT are found at PATAS to have authorised "unlawful signage"?  I refer to Eden Street contraflow bus lane in Kingston on Thames.  They have since altered the signage.  BTW, neither council is prepared to refund motorists.
« Last Edit: 11 March, 2012, 12:35:30 PM by The Phoenix »
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.  Not to be confused with the Patas Adjudicator - a species yet to be studied.  Use extreme caution: it's  unpredictable

Offline BGB

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 662
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #6 on: 11 March, 2012, 12:53:01 PM »
The Phoenix

Bennage is currently fighting a case there.

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php/topic,1630.0.html

Apparently there is a DfT authorisation.  However, I very much doubt they authorised it exactly as it is.  If that is the case then the bus lane is unenforceable.

If you have the DfT authorisation could you post it on Bennage's thread!b?

Note that it the council, not the DfT which actually erects the signs. 


Offline The Bald Eagle

  • Administrator
  • Follower
  • *****
  • Posts: 4402
  • THE lowest common denominator
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #7 on: 11 March, 2012, 02:22:40 PM »
@The Phoenix

There is a very specific procedure that enforcing authorities have to go through in order to obtain authority from the Secretary of State (SoS) for use of signs not contained within the TSRGD. Part of that procedure would normally include sending in a plan of the signs and lines you want to use at a specific location.

Please check out the application made by Herts CC for permission to use unauthorised signs at Moor End Road. Link here:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?search=Hertfordshire+county+council

On the pdf attached you will see the signs proposed and approved for use.

May I suggest that you check with the DfT (by FoI request) as to the signs authorised by the SoS, and compare the plans that were approved with what has actually been put in place.

Please let us know if there are any discrepancies. If there are, we may then be able to advise on how to get everyone's money back... ;)
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline DastardlyDick

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 1697
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #8 on: 11 March, 2012, 04:54:39 PM »
No sign of any special authorisation for Bucks County Councils wheeze at Moor End Lane.

I'm afraid there won't be - Moor End Lane is in Hemel Hempstead which, last time I looked, is in Hertfordshire.  :)

Offline The Phoenix

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #9 on: 12 March, 2012, 01:13:17 AM »
Hi.  I did notice that Bennage has a thread.  Last year in March I did drive down the bus lane myself and took pics and a video.  The signage is not compliant with the diagrams as approved.  I have actually told the DfT but, as usual, they pass the buck to PATAS.  I will try to find all the paperwork and may need some advice as to how to upload a pdf file on here!  Thanks in advance.  I do have it, I know, and will also provide a case number when I check my e-mails.  I also made a FOIR and discovered that the lane accounts for about two thirds of all revenue in the borough as already stated.  In my view, apart from these issues, I regard it as extremely dangerous since traffic who know the offside lane tend to undertake you on the left i.e. coming out of the nearside bus lane.  It is quite a mess!

I seem to remember some paperwork issues, too.
« Last Edit: 12 March, 2012, 01:35:06 AM by The Phoenix »
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.  Not to be confused with the Patas Adjudicator - a species yet to be studied.  Use extreme caution: it's  unpredictable

Offline The Bald Eagle

  • Administrator
  • Follower
  • *****
  • Posts: 4402
  • THE lowest common denominator
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #10 on: 12 March, 2012, 11:54:50 AM »
Hi.  I did notice that Bennage has a thread.  Last year in March I did drive down the bus lane myself and took pics and a video.  The signage is not compliant with the diagrams as approved.  I have actually told the DfT but, as usual, they pass the buck to PATAS.  I will try to find all the paperwork and may need some advice as to how to upload a pdf file on here!  Thanks in advance.  I do have it, I know, and will also provide a case number when I check my e-mails.  I also made a FOIR and discovered that the lane accounts for about two thirds of all revenue in the borough as already stated.  In my view, apart from these issues, I regard it as extremely dangerous since traffic who know the offside lane tend to undertake you on the left i.e. coming out of the nearside bus lane.  It is quite a mess!

I seem to remember some paperwork issues, too.

Send us what you have please Phoenix. If they have messed up, we have a cunning plan... ;)
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline The Phoenix

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #11 on: 12 March, 2012, 03:07:04 PM »
OK.  Just to clarify please, I worked on this particular case while on another site last year.  I greatly respect this site and do not want to upset anyone so is it ok to provide the link to the other site, either by posting publicly or privately to Bennage or anyone else?  I note his thread and wish to assist and will do shortly.

Also, I did the research last night/this morning and have managed to copy the link of the DfT pdf file so I could send it.  My problem is, it has all my personal details on it and I cannot remove them.  I am quite willing to forward everything privately and assist on the thread re the PCN/EN issues:  the grounds are inadequately expressed - one missing - the grounds expressed on PCN and EN do not tally, and there is a threat re service of the charge certificate which is contrary to the law.  I have to go for a few hours now but will get back as soon as I receive a reply.

Re cunning plan:  I want in, please!  This clowncil needs a good hiding!  I have contacts in Surrey Comet and Evening Standard BTW. It is totally incredulous that they have been allowed to get away with this unjust enrichment as the signage is wrong, both in terms of the authorisation, and in relation to each other.  Trouble is, if one puts in a really strong appeal, as we did last year, they will just not show up and withdraw finding some excuse.
« Last Edit: 12 March, 2012, 03:20:25 PM by The Phoenix »
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.  Not to be confused with the Patas Adjudicator - a species yet to be studied.  Use extreme caution: it's  unpredictable

Offline Ewan Hoosami

  • Administrator
  • Follower
  • *****
  • Posts: 2227
  • Veni, Vidi, $chunti. I came, I saw, I assisted.
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #12 on: 12 March, 2012, 03:32:32 PM »
Don't worry about upsetting anyone Phoenix, you're in no danger there. It's fine to put up links to other sites, the more information we have, the better. Be careful about posting documents with personal info on. All personal stuff should be redacted. You can do this by annotating the pdf in a preview window. My weapon of choice is a Mac and a tutorial for annotations is here;

http://www.apple.com/uk/pro/tips/pdf_annotation.html

I'm guessing, like most people, you might be a microsoft man. I don't know much about them but you might get lucky with a google search and find a tutorial. Someone will probably post some help anyway. There's a few on here that know their way around a computermabob.

Welcome to the funhouse anyway Phoenix, it's good to have you here.

Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline The Phoenix

  • Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: DfT special authorisations for signs and lines
« Reply #13 on: 12 March, 2012, 05:02:13 PM »
Thanks.  It's fun already, Ewan!  I will post the link to Bennage's thread and get some advice from my son re Windows redactions.
Here is the link anyway:  http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=56388&pid=525742&mode=threaded&start=#entry525742

This was a year ago, so I don't know if the signage has changed, of cours.  More later - the fish is on the bbq!  I will try and find the actual appeal, too.  Case: 211013705A
« Last Edit: 12 March, 2012, 11:51:37 PM by The Phoenix »
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.  Not to be confused with the Patas Adjudicator - a species yet to be studied.  Use extreme caution: it's  unpredictable