Author Topic: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.  (Read 12276 times)

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Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #15 on: 17 May, 2012, 04:06:30 PM »
Hello Blindowl and welcome. You are not by any chance a Canned Heat fan? (Showing me age now).

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Please check your PMs. ;)
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Offline Kill Switch

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #16 on: 17 May, 2012, 04:55:19 PM »
Welcome aboard Blindowl.

Video is listed as private so I can't watch it  ::)))
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Offline Staps

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #17 on: 17 May, 2012, 08:43:03 PM »
Good to have you on board welcome to the party

Offline The Phoenix

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #18 on: 17 May, 2012, 09:28:59 PM »
Welcome aboard Blindowl.

Video is listed as private so I can't watch it  ::)))

I believe a PM will prove useful.
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Offline Bennage

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #19 on: 22 May, 2012, 05:58:17 PM »
Hello again all.
I too am interested in the result of this.   I got a ticket from it many years ago for turning left and using the bus lane a little too early to do so.   I live about 5 minutes walk from here so any additional photos etc. should be doable.

Offline Blindowl

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #20 on: 14 June, 2012, 10:29:46 PM »
I did request copy of their camera certification - this was their first response:
Dear Mr
Freedom of Information Act 2000/ Environmental Information Regulations 2004- Information request

We have now considered your request for information as set out below.

You asked for copies of the VCA certificates for enforcement cameras relating to bus lane contraventions.

I must advise you that there is no requirement for the cameras used to enforce bus lane contraventions to be certified. We are therefore unable to supply the information you have requested.

If you have any queries or concerns about this please contact me.

If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request please contact Simon Guild, the Head of Information at Merton Council, Civic Centre, Morden, SM4 5DX or e-mail foi@merton.gov.uk

If you remain dissatisfied with the handling of your request or complaint, you have a right to appeal to the Information Commissioner at:
The Information Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.
Telephone:0303 123 1113
Website: www.ico.gov.uk
There is no charge for making an appeal.

Yours sincerely


I explained that I was not interested in their views on the validity of the certificates re: bus lane PCNs and asked them to process the request under FOI. This got a totally different response :


Thank you for your email below. 
 
I would like to take this opportunity to clarify our response and apologise for the lack of clarity in our original response letter to you.  We do not hold certificates for these cameras.  I am sincerely sorry this was not stated in our original response.
 
I hope this clarifies our response and explains why we can not provide you with copies of the certificates.
 
If you remain dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you can request a review by writing to:
the Head of Information Governance at Merton Council, Civic Centre, Morden, SM4 5DX or e-mail foi@merton.gov.uk
 
 
If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your complaint, you can then appeal to the Information Commissioner at:
The Information Commissioner's Office, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF.
Telephone: 0303 123 1113 Website: www.ico.gov.uk
There is no charge for making an appeal.
 


In fact I don't think this matter is relevant to my particular casee (?) so don't plan to pursue further - but it does seem odd, especially when considered with the camera comments in postings above...

Nigel W

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #21 on: 15 June, 2012, 05:18:43 AM »
EA's do not require 'certification' of approved devices used for bus lane enforcement.  However they do need type approval of those devices.  This is usually satisfied by a certificate.  See the attached documents issued to adjoining authorities.  In each case you will see that there are two certificates. One for parking and underneath another one for Bus Lanes.

See also: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/2756/made

The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005

Approved devices

2.  A device is an approved device for the purposes of regulations under section 144 of the Transport Act 2000 (civil penalties for bus lane contraventions) if it is of a type which falls within any of the following descriptions—

If Merton are unable to demonstrate that their cameras are type approved they will have problems satisfying adjudicators at PaTAS.

Offline Blindowl

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #22 on: 15 June, 2012, 07:00:10 PM »
Thanks for the input, I'll send the Wandsworth letter to Merton and ask them to confirm they are unable to provide their equivalent.

May you can answer another question on cameras - my PCN has two different time stamps printed on it - they effectively rounded up the milli seconds to nearest second. It's pedantic I know - but Merton Council are pedantic so bring the worst out in me!

If there any point in making an issue of this  - or is it reasonable. (In normal circumstances I myself would say it is reasonable - but then I would say it is reasonable to clip the end of a BL when turning left!!!)


Nigel W

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #23 on: 15 June, 2012, 09:50:40 PM »
The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005

THE SCHEDULE - THE SPECIFIED CRITERIA

3.  The equipment includes a recording system in which—

(c)each frame is timed (in hours, minutes and seconds), dated and sequentially numbered automatically, using a visual counter which resets to zero when the recording system is initially activated and increments for each frame;

(d)the location of the bus lane or selected area being surveyed is shown;

If there is no millisecond marker or frame numbering the footage is non-compliant.

Offline Blindowl

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #24 on: 18 June, 2012, 01:50:47 PM »
Well I gave them a second chance - it seems Merton do not have certificates for these cameras - is this a big problem for them ?
Merton seem to think they are not needed, seems rather a basic omission if the certificate is mandatory, but then with pretty much every exchange with Merton my opinion of their effectiveness, attention to detail and integrity is reduced further....



Dear ......,
 
sorry about this, certificates do not exist for these cameras.
 
Yours sincerely,
Rosalind Girdlestone
Freedom of Information Officer
Merton Council
020 8545 4634
www.merton.gov.uk

?

 

From: *@gmail.com]
Sent: 18 June 2012 10:50
To: Rosalind Girdlestone
Cc: foi
Subject: Re: FW: Your information request F0550

Rosalind

Thank you for your reply.

I would be grateful if you could please see the attached certificate (second page) from Kingston Council.

This is my third request for similar information from Merton, and I have received a different response both times, the first response being that I did not need it (!), and the second, yours, being that Merton do not "hold them".

Could you please clarify - do these documents exist, your response could be interpreted as "someone else" holds them....

If the cameras are not certified - I would appreciate your confirmation of this - if they are are, then the certificate will prove this.

The oblique responses received so far do not completely clarify the point either way...

Many Thanks
 


Nigel W

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #25 on: 18 June, 2012, 03:09:26 PM »
Ask them on what basis they are conducting Bus Lane Enforcement without being able to produce any documentation proving that they have type approval of the cameras that they are using.

Offline blackadder

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #26 on: 18 June, 2012, 03:46:53 PM »
The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005

THE SCHEDULE - THE SPECIFIED CRITERIA

3.  The equipment includes a recording system in which—

(c)each frame is timed (in hours, minutes and seconds), dated and sequentially numbered automatically, using a visual counter which resets to zero when the recording system is initially activated and increments for each frame;

(d)the location of the bus lane or selected area being surveyed is shown;

If there is no millisecond marker or frame numbering the footage is non-compliant.


Quote
CCTV Camera Requirements

 

In England Outside London

These are enforced under the Transport Act 2000 and need to be approved devices. The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005

 

In London

These are enforced under the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (amended 2000) There is no requirement for the specific camera to be approved. All that is required is that it is a "prescribed device" as per the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 which defines a prescribed device as "a camera designed or adapted to record the presence of a vehicle on an area of road which is a bus lane or route for use by buses only."


http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/bus.htm#cctv
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Nigel W

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #27 on: 18 June, 2012, 04:42:12 PM »
Bus Lanes in London are enforced variously under the following legislation: Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (as amended). London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended). London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. Transport Act 2000.

The The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005 is the legislation under which the devices used require approval for lawful use.

The 2005 order states:

Approved devices

2.  A device is an approved device for the purposes of regulations under section 144 of the Transport Act 2000 (civil penalties for bus lane contraventions) if it is of a type which falls within any of the following descriptions—

(c)a device that does not meet the criteria referred to in paragraph (b) but which was used before the coming into force of this Order for the purpose of bus lane enforcement under Part II (bus lanes) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996(3).

London Local Authorities Act 1996

“prescribed device” means a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the [1988 c. 53.] Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or a device of a description specified in regulations made for the purposes of this section by the Secretary of State;

Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988

[20  F1 Speeding offences etc: admissibility of certain evidence.

[F2 (f) an offence under Part I or II of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 of contravening or failing to comply with an order or regulations made under either of those Parts relating to the use of an area of road which is described as a bus lane or a route for use by buses only.]

(9)In this section “prescribed device” means device of a description specified in an order made by the Secretary of State.

London Council's Code of Practice for Operation of CCTV Enforcement Cameras

Bus Lanes

2.3.12   Unlike Parking Enforcement, there is no requirement for an approved device under London Local Authorities Act 1996. The 1996 Act requires that the equipment be a prescribed device, described in the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (as amended) as:

"a camera designed or adapted to record the presence of a vehicle on an area of road which is a bus lane or route for use by buses only." (See the above under RTOA 1988).

It is therefore the responsibility of each enforcing authority to ensure that the equipment they use fits within the description of the 1988 Act.

2.3.13   If bus lane enforcement is being performed under the Transport Act 2000 then an approved device is required. Approval is similar to that for parking enforcement except that the system must additionally comply with the Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005.

2.3.14   Authorities should also be mindful of the possibility for harmonisation of legislation under the Traffic Management Act when specifying camera systems for bus lanes.


« Last Edit: 18 June, 2012, 05:16:37 PM by Nigel W »

Offline The Phoenix

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #28 on: 05 July, 2012, 11:20:10 PM »
Courtesy of Blindowl.  A recent decision:

Paragraph 21 of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, as applicable

Case Reference:   2120242378
Appellant:   Mr Robert Lester
Authority:   Merton
VRM:   T518CRW
PCN:   MT40965561
Contravention Date:   17 Dec 2011
Contravention Time:   17:34
Contravention Location:   Hartfield Road
Penalty Amount:   £130.00
Contravention:   Being in a bus lane
Decision Date:   14 Jun 2012
Adjudicator:   Anthony Chan
Appeal Decision:   Allowed

Direction:   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons:   The Appellant was unable to attend the hearing due to work commitment. Mr Peter Realf attended on his behalf. Also in attendance was Miss Maria Realf, the Appellant's wife and a witness in this appeal.

Mr Realf made various submissions surrounding   the signage. The most pertinent, on which my decision to allow the appeal is based is as follows. The Appellant accepted that he moved into the bus lane after a junction to a side road. He said that he did not see a sign and thought that the bus lane had ended before the junction.

The main indicator that the bus lane resumed after this junction was a sign to diagram 961 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Mr Realf argued with some force that it should have been a sign to diagram 958 but more importantly, Mr Realf said that the sign was prone to turn so that it does not face on-coming traffic. Mr Realf made a Freedom Of Information Act request and discovered that the sign in question had been knocked out of position several times and had to be re-positioned. Miss Realf has produced photographs taken at various times when the sign was out of position. Mr Realf said that the Authority had accepted that several thousand of PCNs had been issued for the same contravention at the location over a period of a few months.

The Authority pointed out that that the CCTV recording showed that the sign was in place and facing the correct way when the Appellant entered the bus lane. It did not do that. It showed. One cannot tell where the sign was facing when the Appellant entered the bus lane. It was too dark. I accept that there was some evidence that the sign was facing the correct direction   about an hour before the alleged contravention. Against that is the Appellant assertion that he was not able to see the sign.

It is up to the Authority to prove that the sign was facing the correct way when the Appellant entered the bus lane. I am not satisfied that this was the case. I am allowing the appeal.
« Last Edit: 05 July, 2012, 11:32:48 PM by The Phoenix »
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.  Not to be confused with the Patas Adjudicator - a species yet to be studied.  Use extreme caution: it's  unpredictable

Offline Blindowl

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Re: TMO 'Typo' May Lead to Bus Lane Refunds in Merton.
« Reply #29 on: 06 July, 2012, 10:52:37 AM »
I had a great day out in London yesterday - visiting a certain organisation housed above The Angel tube station. Their response can be seen in the link on the last post of:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=69168&st=80&gopid=715061&#entry715061

I do feel somewhat aggrieved that Merton Council put me though so much trouble by issuing a bogus PCN - and there is no come back for them.

(and the fact the Merton issued 1000s of PCNs to other motorists which should have been cancelled on the same grounds)

But hey, they lost, I won - justice prevailed, so excellent result

 


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