Author Topic: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes  (Read 7116 times)

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Offline Monkey Girl

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Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« on: 24 April, 2013, 12:15:12 PM »
just in on the mobs
face book

Pls come to Plymouth the Council now have a couple of cars,as well they put bus lane where the gap is really small and the cars can hardly not go into the bus lane.

I have asked her to provide pictures from all angles, and will update this thread when i get them. :)

Offline jonesy

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #1 on: 24 April, 2013, 12:33:16 PM »
 I wonder if this what she is talking about  :bashy: :bashy: :bashy:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-22262237

Offline jonesy

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #2 on: 24 April, 2013, 12:34:34 PM »
Pemros Road, St Budeaux, near Tamar Bridge (buses and taxis only, no motorcycles)
Exeter Street, near entrance to Friary Park
Outbound side of Embankment Road, near junction of Laira Bridge Road and Florence Place
Inbound side of Embankment Road, giving access to Heles Terrace (strictly for buses only - taxis and motorcycles not allowed)
Northbound on Tavistock Road, between McDonalds and B&Q/Windsor House car park
Saltash Road, between train station and North Cross roundabout

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #3 on: 24 April, 2013, 12:56:40 PM »
I wonder if this what she is talking about  :bashy: :bashy: :bashy:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-22262237


Just from the picture on the Beeb article I can already see a problem.

There is a road marking that indicates that all traffic must turn left, and just beyond it there is a sign that indicates that buses, motorcycles and pushbikes are allowed in the bus lane which goes straight on.

If that's an example of the signs and lines they have in place in Plymouth, it's no wonder they are ripping confused motorists off to the tune of a million quid in eight months.

We need those photos MG, and lots of 'em.
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Offline Monkey Girl

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #4 on: 24 April, 2013, 04:38:37 PM »
That's long way to go to Schunt ,.... but nothing will stops us  ;D

anyone fancy a week end in Plymouth?   :dancing:

Offline Rae

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #5 on: 05 February, 2017, 11:49:31 PM »
Is it still okay to put more info on Plymouth bus lanes here? I've been looking into the Embankment Road bus gate (pictured in the BBC article above). It still catches around 1000 per month, and usually a good bit more during holiday periods.

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #6 on: 06 February, 2017, 01:28:08 PM »
Is it still okay to put more info on Plymouth bus lanes here? I've been looking into the Embankment Road bus gate (pictured in the BBC article above). It still catches around 1000 per month, and usually a good bit more during holiday periods.

By all means, please put up any relevant info here. All records of abuses by councils or private parking companies are gratefully received.  <Thumbsup>
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Offline Rae

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #7 on: 07 February, 2017, 09:52:57 AM »
Thanks, Bald Eagle. Here are some pictures of the Embankment Road bus gate. First, from Google Streetview (I live in Glasgow - a bit too far to go back for photos!), this is where a driver is pretty well committed to staying on Embankment Rd (rather than bear right);

Next, the last chance to avoid the bus gate;

Any thoughts on the road markings here? The traffic signs manual shows white lines guiding drivers away from a typical bus gate, unlike here where the white lines direct drivers straight ahead into the restricted section.
Edit- pics attached
« Last Edit: 07 February, 2017, 10:01:15 AM by Rae »

Offline Rae

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #8 on: 07 February, 2017, 10:32:29 AM »
Another issue is the eagerness to enforce. For example in April 2016, one of the signs ended up facing the wrong direction for a few days (see picture attached). The PCNs were cancelled for one day, but not for some other days, apart from a handful where presumably the driver complained. The number of PCNs issued per day had noticeably increased so it seems quite obvious that the sign not being visible resulted in drivers having less warning of the bus gate. Some drivers are still being pursued for payment from the time of this incident (based on recent council data).  Related info -  https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/hidden_bus_lane_sign_april_2016

Any thoughts on whether to do anything with this? Seems very unfair to me , but guess the more experienced members here will have seen much worse!

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #9 on: 07 February, 2017, 11:45:32 AM »
To be perfectly honest Rae, having looked on Googlemaps I'm not sure that Plymouth council could do much more to warn drivers away from going through that particular bus gate. The blue signs are correct, the road is red and the arrows point the way.

However, I have located what I believe is the relevant traffic management order which Plymouth council have handily put on the TPT website (some, but not all councils provide them to TPT to save time on appeals). Check out PL137B here:

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/authority_tro/?authority=Plymouth

The maps G03A, G08A, G09A and G13A (G03, G08, G09 and G13 were revoked) at the bottom of the document are the relevant ones that purport to show where the bus lanes are to be enforced, but search as I might I can't find markings on the maps that fit with the bus lane in Embankment Road. Or am I missing something here?

One of our resident experts on this type of thing is BGB. Perhaps he, or other members could show me the errors of my way cos I'm buggered if I can see anything on those maps.
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Offline Rae

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #10 on: 07 February, 2017, 01:23:06 PM »
There's a drawing of the road layout here, if that helps (it's part of the DfT approvol of non-standard signs);
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/372234/response/909271/attach/html/4/09%2003%202012%20Authorisation%20Document.pdf.html
On the TPT page, PL151 refers to a large number of maps but doesn't have any attached.

Yes, I'd agree it is reasonably obvious when anyone spends time looking at the layout, although it still catches visitors at quite a rate. The company who designed the layout said the reason for not using the standard Traffic Signs Manual road markings to direct traffic to the left is that "vehicles are only expected to use this route in extreme circumstances". Seems like they don't want too much traffic turning left?
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bus_route_at_embankment_road_mar#comment-75361

Safety is my main concern with these money making schemes. It is bad enough as a cyclist just now but as more drivers get caught, there's a risk visitors to an area could be so focused on reading loads of signs that they spend less time looking out for other road users.

Just on the road markings though, wouldn't the standard markings help a bit (fig 15-14 below)?

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #11 on: 08 February, 2017, 11:27:25 AM »
I agree that the additional road markings could help, but the fact is the council has a dispensation from the DfT to move away from the standard signs and road markings.

And I have just shot down my own theory of not having a TRO in place for the location, because some more research reveals there is such an order (see 212.1 on page 26)

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Plymouth/PL118.pdf

Looks like game, set and match to the council me.  <_>
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Offline scalyback

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #12 on: 09 February, 2017, 07:22:43 AM »
Plymouth; of course; has been up here before for their novel approach to road lining. This one still gets me...

Offline Bad Company

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #13 on: 09 February, 2017, 10:22:18 AM »
Shame in a way.  A $chunt in Plymouth would have been fun - in summer of course.

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Problems in Plymouth bus lanes
« Reply #14 on: 09 February, 2017, 10:42:38 AM »
Hmmmm.   <thinking>

A $chunt. In Plymouth. In the summer.  :idea:

Me, the missus, a hotel for the weekend, a meal and some beers in the evening with some $chunting thrown in somewhere along the way. 

I could go for that.  ;D

Anyone care to join us?
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