Author Topic: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD  (Read 14354 times)

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Offline Web Admin

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SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« on: 26 March, 2015, 11:08:27 AM »
This came in to our seen@notomob email address. Please post any advice on this thread and Web Admin will send the writer a link.

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SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD

Hi good people,

I attach a photo (Nottingham Road, Mansfield, NG181BN) showing a bus lane that my wife received a penalty fine of £60/£30 for entering yesterday.

We live in Cannock and on the day, she was visiting our daughter in Mansfield, to babysit our four year old granddaughter, along with taking the granddaughter shopping for some new clothes.

Prior to entering the bus lane, she had stopped to ask directions as to where the ‘Next’ shopping store was, and was told to go straight on up the hill to the next set of traffic lights and turn left.

As she had only stopped to ask directions about 25 yards or so before the bus lane, she took the directions verbatum, and did exactly that – not realising she had entered the bus lane until she was in it.

Also attached is a road sign that we are more familiar with, regarding bus lanes – NO ENTRY except for buses and cycles – which I believe should be used where she was trapped, as blue signs don’t present the same impact of ‘DO NOT’ as red signs do.

I state the word trapped, because in the picture named ‘Nottingham Road, Mansfield, NG181BN’, you can see a big tree central in the picture. Alongside this tree is a lamp post, whereby a camera, is at a higher than normal traffic camera level, so that the tree obliterates all existence of it – yes a SCAM CAM.

I know not whether you are London based or if you need details of these Scam Cams nationwide, but this is a definite scam, as all items concerned in the picture help the scam, noticeably:

1)      The two no entry signs in the oncoming traffic lane gives power of suggestion the lane you are in is OK.

2)      The fact that it is a junction whereby pedestrians and traffic turning are also matters to consider.

3)      The fact that it is a junction means it should have a red sign that attracts your eyes attention. Etc etc., all items to detract from the bus lane.

Anyway, if this is of no use then please disregard – obviously unless you’re visiting Mansfield in the near future !!

Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #1 on: 26 March, 2015, 02:08:09 PM »
Let us examine the location first of all,

Oct '14 Streetview link

Unclear and inadequate signage would be the defence here. First up, travel back to where you would first enter Nottingham Road from Portland Street. There is no advance warning of the restriction, so looking at a map you might assume you can legitimately drive along the full length of Nottingham Road. Similarly, there is no advance warning anywhere from the Portland Street junction to the 'restriction'. The Council rely on one single (blue) sign placed on the left. As you correctly point out, the No Entry signage (oddly telling you not to drive on the wrong side of the road) diverts your attention away from the blue Buses & Cycles Only sign. If you were to notice the blue sign, you might think it applies to the left turn into Commercial Gate. One sign on one corner could mean either. At the very minimum there should be two uniform signs, one on each corner, and at least one advance warning sign before the restriction.

So why the mishmash of signs then? I'm glad you asked because my spidey sense was tingling as well. In Google Streetview you can click on the black address box up the top left to get historical views. Like this one from April 2011 for example,

Apr '11 Streetview link

What's all this skullduggery then? There was once what might be regarded as a perfectly adequate restriction. The blue Buses and Cycles Only sign was rather surplus to requirements but I doubt many, if any, drivers drove through the No Entry signs. This set-up existed from at least April 2009 up to at least November 2012 (historical Streetview images). Sometime between November 2012 and October 2014, the Sheriff of Nottingham has come along and removed the left hand No Entry sign, moved the blue Buses and Cycles Only sign forward to where the left hand No Entry sign was and then removed the Except Buses plates from the remaining No Entry sign. Also of note the council have replaced the faded No Entry sign on the right so this was obviously a deliberate bit of interfering.

A smaller observation is that the pole with the blue Buses and Cycles Only sign appears to have lost it's illumination. The newest streetview image is a few months old so you would need to check if this is still the case but illumination is a legal requirement.

Have a couple of screen grabs to play spot the difference with.


Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline scalyback

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #2 on: 26 March, 2015, 02:16:50 PM »
BUT did you notice, on the older view, there was clear signage but no mention of a speed camera.

Now there is less signage and one small one for what I guess is a new greed camera, thus take a lot of the signs away, and wait to trouser the money!

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #3 on: 26 March, 2015, 02:26:06 PM »
Good spot there scaly. The sign rearrangement project must have happened when the $camera was installed.

Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #4 on: 26 March, 2015, 02:52:33 PM »
Who would like a nice stereogram image of the No Left Turn sign as you emerge from Commercial Gate onto Nottingham Road? Stare at the tree while going boss-eyed and see if it appears.


Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline scalyback

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #5 on: 27 March, 2015, 12:35:42 AM »
So I was dropping off to sleep in bed thinking about this and I just had to get up again.

Please, please tell me if I have made any error in the following.

This bus lane (2011) had what appeared to be a goof amount of signage, warning of a bus and cycle lane.
there were no entry signs both sides and in the the middle, with the except buses sign beneath them.
there was a seperate blue buses and cycles only sign.
there was a no entry bollard in the middle of the road, and a Buses and cycles only written on the road.

All in all a good (I can't say 'correct' as I don't know the rules) junction, which was sure to draw the attention of drivers, giving a straight forward message of a no entry bus lane. Simply put, a council that seemed to put clear understanding at the forefront of the layout here.


Now we step forward to the present.

The no entry sign on the left had disappeared.
All three 'except buses' signs have disappeared.
The Buses and cycles only blue sign has been brought forward and placed on a post where...
the illuminating lamp has been taken away.
The bollard's no entry sign has seen better days and should be replaced.

This is now a totally different scene from the acceptable one portrayed earlier. there are only no entry signs on the right (oncoming) side of the road, plus the bollard's sad attempt. This only indicated that drivers/riders should not enter the road on the oncoming side. The lack of the three Buses only signs, does nothing to indicated to a driver.rider that there is a bus lane, the ony indications given are the road markings that have now been supplemented with an invitingly large 'straight ahead' arrow, and the blue buses and cycles only sign, which is now right oat the opening of the junction, not easy to spot especially at night as the illuminating lamp has been removed, thus leaving it in darkness.

WHY would a council that had previously taken good care to do their duty and warn vehicle uses of the presence of a bus lane, suddenly alter the signage, making it possibly misleading, difficult to interpret, unlit at night, with the result that it is much more likely for drivers to enter the bus and cycle lane, unuware of any restriction?

WHY would a seemingly sensible council suddenly do this???

Well there is one additional small sign which is a little hard to spot. A Greed camera sign.

TEll me this, what other reason could there be, to downgrade the signage at the entry to a bus lane, around the time that a greed camera goes in, Other than to hope that more people will be fooled into driving down the bus lane, thus netting a nice little profit for the council???

IF they were not all about the money, then WHY downgrade the signage?

I may be wrong here, but it does not seem likely, and for a council to purposelyy downgrade signage to try and trick joe public into getting a fine, is in my mind, ruddy disgusting.

SOMEBODY please put me right if I have made any mistakes or errors with the above?

I'm going to bed now, to muse over what may be a new low in the parking industry

 

Offline scalyback

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #6 on: 27 March, 2015, 12:50:32 AM »
Sorry, meant to spell above post better, and did not mean parking industry, but enforcement in general, BUT was so annoyed, I Didn't think to check.

Sorry!

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #7 on: 27 March, 2015, 08:03:09 AM »
I think the difference in the quantity of signs is - at least partly - a result of a Government initiative to "de-clutter" our roads, as it was thought that drivers were so busy looking at all the signs that they were having accidents. According to the DfT, the Mk.1 Human Eyeball requires 2 seconds "settle time" before the brain can start 'processing' the image and a drivers eyes should never be off the road for more than 4 seconds, which is how long it takes us to read 6 words.
Ironically, I seem to remember (I could be wrong), a certain Mr E Pickles MP being very vociferous on the subject as he felt that our roads didn't look nice because of the excessive signage.

Offline scalyback

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #8 on: 27 March, 2015, 08:41:48 AM »
Ah, that's something I didn't know!

Mind you, it may help a lot if the roadside advertising was banned. I don't mean signs on shops or on land adjoining a road where a business puts a sign up.

I refer to all the signs just for advertising. It DOES take time to process multiple signs, and I would rather be processing a road safety sign, thus adding to my knowledge of the road ahead as opposed to countless PPI insurance, holidays and personal accident claims; the reading of which whilst moving could well contribute or be responsible for an accident in themselves.

As for the case above?, well there should still be a no entry sign on the left side of the road with exception plate for buses and cycles, and to simplify the signage? Remove any signs that do not relate to a bus lane entrance (The greed camera sign and of course the camera should go).

Also, put the lamp back on the post, so that the sign is illuminated.
« Last Edit: 27 March, 2015, 08:45:16 AM by scalyback »

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #9 on: 27 March, 2015, 12:17:20 PM »
As for the case above?, well there should still be a no entry sign on the left side of the road with exception plate for buses and cycles, and to simplify the signage? Remove any signs that do not relate to a bus lane entrance (The greed camera sign and of course the camera should go).

Also, put the lamp back on the post, so that the sign is illuminated.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that they can't use a "No Entry" sign on the left hand side of the road as that would prohibit ALL vehicles INCLUDING Buses, which would kind of defeat the purpose of the bus lane.

I think the bus lane sign is illuminated - but since the light fitting is about 4 foot above it, I doubt it actually does anything regarding making the sign visible at night, so clearly the common sense idea of cutting the pole by that amount didn't occur to anyone at the Council.

Offline scalyback

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #10 on: 27 March, 2015, 01:15:26 PM »
 I am sure that you Can use a no entry plate as long as there is an except buses and cycles below and as for the blue sign, the picture from 2011 shows a lamp similar in apoearance to the death ray from the 1950's film war of the worlds where the newer pic just shows a bent pole top with death ray missing.

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #11 on: 27 March, 2015, 01:35:21 PM »
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that they can't use a "No Entry" sign on the left hand side of the road as that would prohibit ALL vehicles INCLUDING Buses, which would kind of defeat the purpose of the bus lane.


This came up when we were looking at the signs and lines at the Hemel Hempstead bus gate.

I believe that the TSRGD does not allow for the standard no entry sign with an exception plate (except buses, taxis, cycles etc), but if memory serves correctly the DfT indicated that it would look very favourably on any application by an authority to be allowed to use such signs if they believed they would be more effective than the ones provided for in the TSRGD.

In fact, look what I just found on the DfT "special authorisations" site.

See page 4 http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4100.pdf

Unfortunately, Herts CC appear to have had second thoughts (see link below) and have now plumped for the standard blue signs, which makes the cynic in me wonder if they have made a conscious decision to put in the more confusing signs to nab more motorists.  <bashy2> :bashy: <bashy2> :bashy:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4263.pdf

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FYI the DfT publish any special authorisations here. http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?page=1

I simply searched Hertfordshire County Council and it took me straight to all special authorisations the DfT have granted to the authority.


 
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Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: SCAM CAM IN MANSFIELD
« Reply #12 on: 27 March, 2015, 02:01:50 PM »
…………….which makes the cynic in me wonder if they have made a conscious decision to put in the more confusing signs to nab more motorists.

If the signage is crystal clear, there's little use for a $camera. It would be silly to install a $camera unless you were confident it was at least going to 'wipe it's face'.


Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

 


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