Author Topic: Parking permit  (Read 2318 times)

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Offline jonesy

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Parking permit
« on: 10 February, 2018, 05:47:40 PM »
Mr DW lives in a flat where residents have to display a parking permit. He mistakenly failed to display the permit one day and received a PCN from UKPC parking enforcement. He tried to appeal but as he believed it was his fault and a lawfully issued see his original comment on FB below


I need some advice. The car park of my flat is patrolled by parking wardens, who will ticket you if you don't display your permit. Back in November they ticketed me in a misunderstanding, and as part of that appeal process I had to post them my parking permit as proof I had one. Weeks have passed, and they haven't posted my permit back to me. Since then the parking wardens have been given a code to the gate and have started coming around every few days. I've gotten 3 tickets in the past week for not displaying my permit... but I literally cannot display it because these fuckers have it!! I don't know what to do. They have no phone number to call, and the online appeals process takes 40 days to be acknowledged. I could receive 30 more tickets in that time! Does anyone have any suggestions?


as a result I then ask him some questions

1, who is the management company
2, the parking enforcement firm
3, did they cancel your first ticket when you appealed and sent back the permit,
4, who did you send the permit too and who asked you to do that,
5,Did you a letter from the managed company informing you that enforcement was going to place and later informing you that access would be provided to the warden via the key code
6 are flat occupiers visitors provided a permit for short time visits
7 Do you have to pay for permit.
8 How many other residents have been given tickets( if known)
9 Roughly how many non residents get tickets any idea?
Have ever spoken to a warden if so what was said.
Cheers
he replied

1) SDL Bigwood

2) UKPC

3) No, because their ticket was valid. The rules state you have to display a permit and I wasn't displaying my permit at the time.

4) I sent my permit to UKPC, and UKPC asked me to do that as part of the appeal process. I have the email from them where they ask for it.

5) No, no letters or anything from the management company. There are signs in the car park and my estate agent told me I needed the permit when I moved in, but no letters. Also nothing in my tenancy agreement.

6) No, there are no visitor permits issued. I guess from now on I can't have guests in my car park, they will have to pay for one of the multi stories in town, which will be hugely expensive. That being said, the wardens only seem to come at around 7am in the morning so it will only be a problem for guests staying overnight.

7) Not the initial one, that was free. I did lost it at one point and had to pay #5 for a replacement.

I've heard of at least one other getting one, but I'm sure there are more. I don't really know anyone else here so I wouldn't have heard about it.

9) No idea, sorry. Anyone who isn't displaying a permit when a warden shows up will get one, so I imagine a few.

10) No, they only come at about 7am, and I'm getting ready for work then. I've never seen one at a different time.

NoTOMOB comments and advice would be apprceaited
cherers all
Jonesy


Offline Kill Switch

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #1 on: 11 February, 2018, 02:03:40 PM »
Firstly, speak to the council to get a temporary permit, I live in Hackney, and currently have a temp permit for a courtesy car, and wa able to get this via the council website, admin fee is applicable.  If this can be done via the council website in question, you may be able to print a temp permit, i was!

In the mean time try these numbers:
UKPC: 0870 218 3579
Dial the UKPC contact number to request information regarding the parking services provided. Individuals should also contact UKPC custmer service if they need help with resolving an issue related to outstanding parking tickets. Specific business hours for support via the UKPC phone number are not provided.

UKPC Contact Number
0870 218 3579
UK Parking Control Limited is a popular company that is well-known for offering cutting-edge parking solutions to small companies, medium-sized companies, and large corporations. These services are ideal for companies interested in establishing a safe environment for employees, patrons, and motor vehicles. With over twenty-five years of experience in the industry, UK Parking Control Limited continues to excel when it comes to implementing state-of-the art parking tactics that provide positive results. Camera parking control is one of UKPC’s most popular services. Camera parking control monitors parking lots closely throughout the entire day. This form of parking control reduces crime, and it gives patrons a peace of mind.

UKPC: 0870 280 6804
Helpline   Contact Number
Customer Services   0870 280 6804
Make A Complaint   0333 220 1030
International Number   +44 333 220 1030
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice


Offline Kill Switch

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #2 on: 11 February, 2018, 02:12:27 PM »
Contact number source: http://www.hiddencontactnumber.uk
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice


Offline jonesy

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #3 on: 11 February, 2018, 02:30:58 PM »
Thanks for the info Killswitch, one point though, it’s private property rental accommodation and not local council

Offline coco

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #4 on: 11 February, 2018, 03:22:04 PM »
If the only indication that a parking permit was a requirement was a verbal indication from the estate agent the lease agreement will have primacy,

For more information about primacy please see the following exact from Alex Shipp's website (Parking Prankster) it can be seen in context here

Primacy of Contract

The idea behind primacy of contract is that a contract cannot be unilaterally altered by one party without the permission of the other. In the case of residential parking, the lease is the key document. If this gives the resident the unfettered right to park then this cannot be altered later, for instance by requiring a permit to park.

There is a large body of case law which establishes this. In Saeed v Plustrade Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 2011 it was found the managing agent could not reduce the amount of parking spaces available to residents. In Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E, on appeal it was found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to temporarily stop near the building entrance for loading/unloading.

In Pace v Mr N [2016] C6GF14F0 [2016] it was found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

In Link Parking v Ms P C7GF50J7 [2016] it was also found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #5 on: 13 February, 2018, 11:42:35 PM »
 <Yeahthat>

Also, make sure matey hangs onto that email requesting that the permit be sent in. Obviously the only reason UKPC wanted this is so that they could hang onto it while their weasel hands out charges galore. This introduces the doctrine of 'frustration of contract'. Our man wanted to abide by the rules and display his permit but was unable to because the parking company had it. I'll wager that unless our man sent it recorded then the letter will have likely been, ahem, 'lost in the post'  <Whistle>

Additionally, forbidding signage = no contract, as discovered in PCM (UK) -V- Bull,
https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/211845529-Forbidding-Signs-PCM-UK-v-Bull-B4GF26K6-
Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline jonesy

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #6 on: 15 February, 2018, 11:02:04 AM »
Ok with your help  it seems this issue has now been resolved. The property management company have got UKPC to put a exemption marker on his car and are working to try and get the "fines " cancelled. The owner of the car is making som sort complaint but I told him not to hold his breath !!!!!
Cheers all
Jonesy

Offline jonesy

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #7 on: 16 March, 2018, 07:38:31 PM »
Hi all
Mr DW has contacted me, and it appears that UKPC are looking at taking him to court? he states the following .... I got hold of the management company for the building (this is where he lives) and demanded that they make UKPC drop the charges. UKPC replied saying they would reduce the charges down to £120. MR DW refused saying it was UKPC fault and therefore not paying as it was their mistake. He goes on to say, the only option left if I refuse is to pay them is to take me to court.
I've asked for copies of the letters from the management company and UKPC to be emailed to me but thought a little bit of advice /guidance would help to reassure Mr DW and convince him to fight this and cave in and pay 
 

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #8 on: 17 March, 2018, 09:26:05 AM »
From what you have told us Jonesy, there is no way this guy should cave in in my opinion.

There is so much wrong with this there is no way a court claim will succeed. I am sure that between us we can produce a cast iron defence that will see UKPC Ltd laughed out of court.

Coco and Ewan have already mentioned two grounds of defence that can be used, but given that DW was asked for and provided his permit to UKPC Ltd, I can see no way that a judge would uphold a claim whereby the Claimant is, by its own actions, responsible for putting the Defendant in the dock.

Send us all the documentation mate and we'll get it sorted. In fact send it to me via email and we'll sort it behind closed doors where the wea$els can't see. ;)
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline jonesy

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #9 on: 09 April, 2018, 09:04:29 PM »
Well the saga continues and although DW's management company seemed to be able to cancel the " invoices" UKPC are still intent and getting him to pay up. To assist with your replies I asked DW to provide a sequence of events which I'm sure you find interesting


 Each flat is assigned a parking space. I live in flat 20, so parking space 20 can only be used by me. Each car has to display a permit to be able to park in the car park.

26/11/17 – I didn’t have a car. A friend left their car here overnight, but having not had a car for 6 months I forgot about putting the permit inside. I appealed the ticket because while we forgot to display the permit, I do have one and therefore have a right to park a car in my own space.

04/01/2018 – UKPC responded asking me to provide them with a copy of a valid parking permit to support my appeal. We only had one copy, which is the one we keep in the car, so I posted it to them with a letter asking them to return it to me ASAP. This included my address to enable them to return the permit to me.

In the gap between posting my permit and receiving a response, I purchased a new car for myself as I was starting a new job outside of the city I live in. I could not display my permit in the new car as UKPC had the only copy.

22/01/2018 – UKPC received my permit, and respond saying that they are upholding the ticket, but will reduce it from £100 down to £15. I didn’t feel this was right, but just wanted the issue to be over so I paid the £15. My permit is not posted back to me.

30/01/2018 – I attempt to contact UKPC to find out where my permit was but their contact phone number doesn’t work, they have no email address you can contact, and their only postal address was a PO box. I had recently started in my new job and was very busy, so I decided to give them a few more weeks to return the permit to me before I tried more extreme measures to contact them.

04/02/2018 – I received a parking ticket from UKPC for not displaying my permit. The ticket is for £100. I am unable to display my permit due to them still having it. I attempt to contact them but the only phone numbers I can find don’t work.

05/02/2018 – I received a parking ticket from UKPC for not displaying my permit. The ticket is for £100. I appeal both tickets.

08/02/2018 – I received a parking ticket from UKPC for not displaying my permit. The ticket is for £100. I still can’t contact UKPC, so I contact the estate agents who I rented the flat from to see if they can help.

09/02/2018 – I received a parking ticket from UKPC for not displaying my permit. The ticket is for £100.

11/02/2018 - I received a parking ticket from UKPC for not displaying my permit. The ticket is for £100. At this point I am still unable to contact UKPC to discuss the issue.

12/02/2018 – I am still working with the estate agents to resolve the issue. They contact the property management company (SDL Property management) who in turn contact UKPC to ask them to cancel the tickets and to put me on the exemption list until the permit is returned to me.

13/02/2018 – UKPC respond to the management company saying they will place me on the exemption list, but will not cancel the tickets and I must appeal each ticket. Kirsty from SDL asks if the tickets can be lumped together in to one appeal, but UKPC respond and say each one must be done individually. I call Kirsty, who I had been emailing, and say this is not good enough and I still want the tickets cancelled. She says she will look in to this. I submit appeals for all 5 tickets in the meantime to stop the ticket from escalating to either debt collectors or court proceedings. Appeals take up to 35 days to receive a response.

13/02/2018 – 13/03/2018 – I attempt to contact Kirsty from SDL multiple times, but she is always on holiday, in training, or out of the office.

10/03/2018 – I receive a response to my first round of appeals from UKPC. They want me to send them a copy of my parking permit. At this point they have still not returned my parking permit to me, making it impossible to send them a copy of it.

13/03/2018 – Feeling incredibly stressed, and desperate to resolve the situation, I attempt to contact Kirsty at SDL again. She is out of the office, so I end up having a very terse conversation with a chap named Steve Price. He knows nothing about the situation, so I essentially have to start from scratch. 

16/03/2018 – Steve had contacted UKPC for me. They said that they feel the tickets are valid and will not cancel them but will let me pay a reduced rate for them. I refuse to pay anything, as it is literally their fault that I cannot display the permit. They also claim that I never paid the original ticket from back in November. I tell Steve I have and forward him an email from UKPC confirming I had paid.

19/03/2019 – I call Steve to follow up, but he says he hasn’t received the email. I forward it again, and he does receive it this time. I also ask him to post me a new parking permit for my space, so I can send it to UKPC. He says he can’t as SDL don’t have any in stock. I ask him to let UKPC know this, and to email confirmation of this fact to me as well.

21/03/2018 – A new permit arrives despite SDL saying they didn’t have any. I send a copy of this in the post straight to UKPC.

 28/03/2018 – UKPC respond saying that they believe the ticket is fair but will reduce the rate down to £15 per ticket. This would make it a total of £75 for all 5 tickets. While this is preferable to the original £500, it is still ridiculous given that it is UKPC’s fault I received the tickets in the first place. I have 35 days to decide whether to pay the £15 or to escalate the appeal to POPLA. If I escalate and lose, then I will have to pay the full £100 per ticket.

Now: SDL are still chasing them up, so I need to contact them to find out where they are with it. I also need to decide whether or not to pay money I shouldn’t have to pay to be rid of this mess, or carry on fighting for what’s right but risk having to pay £500 which I don’t have.

Offline jonesy

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #10 on: 12 April, 2018, 04:44:32 PM »
Hi all
with regards to this on going issue, DW has 5 outstanding tickets each one issued for not displaying his parking permit, which was sent to UKPC to prove he was allowed to park there.
The management company which provides the permits made the situation worse by their lack of customer service (please see above time line on previous post) DW has until 25th April to appeal via popla
Any advice /guidance will be appreciated
cheers
Jonesy
 

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #11 on: 15 April, 2018, 09:45:17 AM »
From what you have told us Jonesy, there is no way this guy should cave in in my opinion.

There is so much wrong with this there is no way a court claim will succeed. I am sure that between us we can produce a cast iron defence that will see UKPC Ltd laughed out of court.

Coco and Ewan have already mentioned two grounds of defence that can be used, but given that DW was asked for and provided his permit to UKPC Ltd, I can see no way that a judge would uphold a claim whereby the Claimant is, by its own actions, responsible for putting the Defendant in the dock.

Send us all the documentation mate and we'll get it sorted. In fact send it to me via email and we'll sort it behind closed doors where the wea$els can't see. ;)

I can only repeat... <Yeahthat>
WE ARE WATCHING YOU

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #12 on: 15 April, 2018, 12:48:12 PM »
PoPLA "verdicts" are only binding on the Parking Company not the Consumer, so UKPC would still have to take this gentleman to Court to get any money out of him. I'm sure a proper Court would swiftly see through UKPCs antics and find against them.

Offline jonesy

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #13 on: 21 May, 2018, 10:48:57 PM »
 well  Mr DW appealed and below is the outcome..... he has now received letters demanding £500 or else the debt collectors will be sent, and if he ignores them then they say there're going to take him to court which incur additional costs if he loses which will amount to around £1000
As you can imagine he's a bit scared and hasn't got that kind of money
I've told him to join the forum so people can advise accordingly...... cheers all Jonesy

 
 The appellant’s case is that as part of a previous appeal to the operator they were asked to post their permit to them. The appellant says that they did this and enclosed a cover letter asking for it to return the permit to them but the operator never did. They state that the operator then started issuing a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) for not displaying a valid permit when it was impossible to do as the operator was still in possession of their permit. The appellant says that the operator created this situation by withholding their permit.

Assessor supporting rational for decision
When entering private land, motorists are expected to comply with the terms and conditions. The operator has provided images of the signage laid out at the site. The terms and conditions of the site state: “Failure to comply with the following at any time will result in a £100 Parking Charge being issued to the vehicle’s driver…A valid parking permit must be clearly displayed at all times.” The operator has provided date and time stamped photographic evidence of vehicle VF17 CHK parked at the site on 5 February 2018 without displaying a valid permit. The vehicle was first observed at 07:39, and the PCN was issued at 07:45. The appellant’s case is that as part of a previous appeal to the operator they were asked to post their permit to them. The appellant says that they did this and enclosed a cover letter asking for it to return the permit to them but the operator never did. They state that the operator then started issuing a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) for not displaying a valid permit when it was impossible to do as the operator was still in possession of their permit. The appellant says that the operator created this situation by withholding their permit. The British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice states in section 19: “If the driver breaks the contract, for example by not paying the tariff fee or by staying longer than the time paid for, or if they trespass on your land, they may be liable for parking charges. These charges must be shown clearly and fully to the driver on the signs which contain your terms and conditions.” “If the driver breaks the contract, for example by not paying the tariff fee or by staying longer than the time paid for, or if they trespass on your land, they may be liable for parking charges. These charges must be shown clearly and fully to the driver on the signs which contain your terms and conditions.” I acknowledge the appellant’s comments and the circumstances which led to them parking without a valid permit. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that they park in accordance with the terms and conditions displayed on private land. The appellant was aware of the terms and conditions in place and parked where they had knowing that they did not have a valid permit. If the appellant was concerned about this I would have expected them to contact the operator directly for advice or alternatively park the vehicle elsewhere until they were in receipt of a valid permit. By parking on this land this signifies the appellant’s acceptance of the terms and conditions displayed, and by not displaying a valid permit these terms and conditions were not met. If the appellant is unhappy with how the operator is acting in this instance, I suggest discussing this with the operator directly. I conclude that the operator has correctly issued the parking charge.

Offline scalyback

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Re: Parking permit
« Reply #14 on: 22 May, 2018, 08:53:03 AM »
SO...
If I ask you to send me your wallet and then fine you for not having any money, that's ok is it?

Seriously, how many of these assessors would you need standing together in a field to create a thicket?

 


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