Author Topic: No pcn issued where do i stand with this  (Read 22783 times)

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Offline terri44787

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No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« on: 07 June, 2013, 04:04:27 PM »
Hi all,
Back on the 27th April I was photographing a clients wedding. I was at her home in Lovel Avenue in Welling and all the cars in the road were parked on a section of pavement. I also parked on a section of pavement the same as every other car including the next door neighbours car, there were no yellow lines and no signs in the road stating not to. A local traffic warden came along and I spoke to them and they said if I parked on the road I would be fine. I moved my car and did so, I was not handed a pcn and one was not put onto my car.
Today I have received a 'Notice to Owner' stating that I was parked on the pavement and I have to pay the full amount. Can I argue this, as I was not given an initial Parking ticket? even though other cars in the road did have notices (the hair and make up lady being one)
The other thing that is really annoying is the time on my notice to owner is 11.01 the time on their photo is 10.58and I did not take my first photo untill 11.05 and they were nowhere to be seen when I arrived.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks

Theresa

Offline dangerous beanz

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #1 on: 07 June, 2013, 04:08:43 PM »
I think, if you can prove the timings are wrong you may well have a good chance.

Other more dialed in guys will be along later to put me right if necessary.
If there is a tourist season...how come we can't shoot them?

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #2 on: 08 June, 2013, 11:01:50 AM »
Hmmmm :idea:. Can you redact the relevant info Terri and send us a copy of the ticket? Your explanation suggests that you were caught by the cctv $car. However, until we are sure of the circumstances it will be difficult to advise.
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Offline terri44787

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #3 on: 10 June, 2013, 02:28:20 PM »
Hi
It was not a cctv car as I stood there and talked to the actual traffic enforcement person. The other people at the wedding (makeup and hair people) didnt go out and had pcns on their car. Mine had nothing. The person took a photo of the car for evidence, the photo shows the car with no ticket on it.
I have attached a copy of the notice I have received to this post...(hopefully)

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #4 on: 10 June, 2013, 04:51:39 PM »
It's beginning to look like you have been the victim of a 'phantom ticket.' This is a ticket that has been issued after the victim has left the scene and then discarded. When you say that 'the person took a picture for evidence,' I assume you mean the Civil Enforcement Officer as opposed to one of the people you were at the wedding with. I appreciate it was some time ago now but do you remember if the CEO was pressing buttons on his/her/it's handheld computer as you were being lied to? If, as I suspect, the parking weasel began to prepare the ticket after you had left the scene, then the ticket is unlawful. Tickets of this nature are only lawful if the victim has driven away after the CEO has begun to preparing the ticket. It looks like he/she/it could see there wouldn’t be time to get this PCN started so got the photo took as evidence. It is best practice for a CEO to take the photos after the PCN has been finished and attached to the car (served.)  It is also common for PCN details to include the vehicle’s tax disc serial number as corroborating evidence. This is absent on yours which again suggests the PCN was not being prepared at the time you left.

That would be my initial analysis. Oh and welcome to the gang.


Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #5 on: 10 June, 2013, 04:54:22 PM »
The TMA states that (unless the vehicle is driven away) PCNs have to be 'served' by either (a) affixing it to the vehicle or (b) handing it to "the person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle". I would start off by making a representation to the Council telling them that the PCN was not 'served' at the time and see what they say to that.

Do you still have the envelope the Notice to Owner came in? If so, has it got the same date (3rd June) on it as the NtO? If not, put that in your representation as well, as that's a "procedural impropriety", and is enough to render the NtO (and therefore the PCN) invalid.

Make sure you keep all correspondence with the Council (including the above mentioned envelope if you still have it) as Bexley probably won't give up easily, and you could well end up having to go to adjudication at PaTAS.

Might I also suggest that you post this on www.pepipoo.com - you'll have to join, but it's free and the guys and gals over there are very, very good at this stuff.

« Last Edit: 10 June, 2013, 05:22:47 PM by DastardlyDick »

Offline terri44787

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #6 on: 10 June, 2013, 05:31:06 PM »
Right.
Having gone through my recycling bin to find the envelope, oddly enough I have found it. It came from Bromley Civic Centre which i find odd. The date on it is 6th June, date on my notice is 3rd June and the date of (non)service of the pcn was 27th April.
I did not drive away to prevent them handing the ticket to me, I moved it over onto the road approx 1 car width to the left. I was there for at least the next 3 hours (these brides take their time getting ready)
The enforcement person took a photo of my car.....I have found it on the website and will attach to this. There is no ticket on it, and you can see other cars parked directly behind me.
The annoying thing is, the other people came out later and had tickets on the cars, but as i moved mine i didnt.
Its annoying as the person took the photo at 10.58 the pcn was issued at 11.01 I didnt take my first photo untill 11.05 (from the exif) so I must have moved the car right between those times!

Offline Pat Pending

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #7 on: 10 June, 2013, 06:31:46 PM »
The PCN should be shown in the photo affixed to the car shouldn't it?
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Offline terri44787

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #8 on: 10 June, 2013, 07:49:22 PM »
Well I thought they had to be in the photo affixed to the car also, to prove they had written it etc.
it's not like I made their life difficult, as I simply moved it and continued my job! I don't think I would have had a very happy bride if I had driven off!
I think they had rich pickings that day, as the hair, make up a couple of guests also were ticketed!
I used to live in Blackfen and I know they can be sneaky, but this has outraged me. What's really annoying is having had my camera on me, I should have taken photos of them!!

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #9 on: 10 June, 2013, 08:17:50 PM »
I should have taken photos of them!!


You know what to do next time now.



Typical evidence packs, as in the set below, contain several images showing the served PCN and also the nature of the contravention. You have only one image which does not show the kerb or the road. It would be impossible to say for sure that the contravention occurred. PaTAS are sure to allow the appeal on the (lack of) evidence.

edit: Especially in light of the fact that you remained at the scene for a considerable time after. The weasel could have no explanation for not completing and serving the PCN and photographing this. Then there are the assurances he/she/it made to you.........
« Last Edit: 10 June, 2013, 08:24:16 PM by Ewan Hoosami »
Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #10 on: 10 June, 2013, 11:01:30 PM »
The PCN should be shown in the photo affixed to the car shouldn't it?

It's "good practice" but not mandatory.

Offline Staps

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #11 on: 11 June, 2013, 12:15:12 PM »
isn't the envelope supposed to be delivered with a 1st class stamp on it as well, just something in the back of my mind that might be worth looking at.

Offline dangerous beanz

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #12 on: 11 June, 2013, 06:00:30 PM »
isn't the envelope supposed to be delivered with a 1st class stamp on it as well, just something in the back of my mind that might be worth looking at.
I think that there has to be a franking mark /postmark / cancelled stamp or similar otherwise what's to stop them leaving it on the desk for two weeks then sending it out? just to lose you the option of the discount.
If there is a tourist season...how come we can't shoot them?

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #13 on: 12 June, 2013, 02:38:41 AM »
isn't the envelope supposed to be delivered with a 1st class stamp on it as well, just something in the back of my mind that might be worth looking at.

You're absolutley right sir, but it looks like they may have got that bit right - posted on the 6th arrived on 7th- it's the fact that the NtO was printed on the 3rd but not posted til the 6th that could get Bexley's PCN cancelled.

Offline terri44787

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Re: No pcn issued where do i stand with this
« Reply #14 on: 15 June, 2013, 09:48:04 AM »
Gggrrrr
They rejected my notice of representation. Stating they do not have to sign no offload parking and the fact the every other car in the road was offload made no difference. Scumbags also claim I was handed the pcn which I was not, as they walked off. So now I have to appeal and I lost the right to pay at a reduced rate...WTF I didn't even get a chance to pay at a reduced rate because they did it wrong!
I wrote about the pact that the nto was issued on the 3rd and was not franked until the 6th...nothing was mentioned about that, or the fact the pcn was issued after the photo of my car (with no pcn) on was taken.

So it looks like I am appealing, any advice about this?

Terri

 


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