Author Topic: Bexley Honey Pot Locations  (Read 19196 times)

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Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #15 on: 04 October, 2011, 01:05:07 PM »
I saw a $car this morning watching the school zig zags outside St. Catherine's on Watling Street just east of the Erith Road Junction. He was enterprising enough to have parked in one of the few parking bays so as to reduce the number of places parents could legally park. I got a shot from google maps as there were a lot of kids outside the school and I thought people might get the wrong idea. I don't mind being labelled a nonce but I would be mortified if parents thought I was employed by Parking Services!  :-ev-:  This school run thing is a nice little earner when you think about it. A forty-five minute window of intensive $camming, twice a day, before setting off to brighten up some other lives around the town.  :bashy:
« Last Edit: 04 October, 2011, 01:07:10 PM by Ewan Hoosami »
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Offline seggsy

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #16 on: 22 October, 2011, 04:28:32 PM »
I saw a $car this morning watching the school zig zags outside St. Catherine's on Watling Street just east of the Erith Road Junction. He was enterprising enough to have parked in one of the few parking bays so as to reduce the number of places parents could legally park. I got a shot from google maps as there were a lot of kids outside the school and I thought people might get the wrong idea. I don't mind being labelled a nonce but I would be mortified if parents thought I was employed by Parking Services!  :-ev-:  This school run thing is a nice little earner when you think about it. A forty-five minute window of intensive $camming, twice a day, before setting off to brighten up some other lives around the town.  :bashy:

My wife got done outside St Catherine's a few years ago, she had actually pulled over when she heard an emergency vehicle with it's blues and twos going. Unluckily she just paid it.

I got done for waiting in a loading bay this morning. Apparently I was "Parked in a place or area not designated for that class of vehicle". Oh man I am going to have such fun appealing this one, I definitely have grounds. I have downloaded the Traffic Signs manual and am currently going through it with a fine tooth comb. No where does it say that a Vauxhall Zafira cannot park in the bay. I have checked and loading shopping is a legitimate reason for waiting in a loading bay. it was not designated for large vehicles so bring it on Bexley......
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Nigel W

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #17 on: 22 October, 2011, 04:55:20 PM »
Skeggsy,

Does the sign plate say: Goods vehicle loading only?

See ground below.

 GROUND 1.The alleged contravention did not occur. 
The above PCN was issued by camera enforcement.
       The PCN issued states that the contravention was (23J). “Parked in a place or area not designated for that class of vehicle”. The allegation is not that loading was not taking place. My vehicle is a hatchback vehicle and is constructed to carry goods. It is made with a hatchback door and the seats all fold flat leaving an area into which goods can be put. Indeed, I have previously used it to carry up to four mobility scooters at the same time. It has a load capacity of 1820 litres which compares with any small van.
The following definitions are contained within current domestic legislation and cover the following:
Definition
Meaning
Goods vehicle:
A motor vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods - this includes goods or burden of any description.

  I cite the following NPAS adjudication. Warrington v Hart District Council. Case No. HT 05035K.

        In Warrington v Hart, the adjudication attempted to classify vehicles that fell between those that were obviously passenger vehicles (traditional saloon cars) and those that were obviously goods vehicles (vans). That adjudication said:
“…. so far as I can see that there is no question of adaptation of the vehicle here but rather whether it was constructed for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden.

The difficulty that arises which is not one easily resolved is that there is a middle ground of types of vehicles between say a van and a traditional saloon car. I think that in the ordinary course one would say that the former is a goods vehicle and the latter a passenger vehicle even though it has a separate boot. The middle ground I have in mind is estate cars, hatchbacks, 4x4s or other vehicles which might be characterised as multi-purpose. Here the vehicle is a hatchback.

The definition set out above simply requires that the vehicle be constructed for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden and in my view this vehicle is so constructed. It is plainly not its only purpose but the definition does not say that it has to be to be constructed for the sole or indeed dominant purpose of such carriage or haulage. It is sufficient that it is one of its purposes provided it is not de minimis and for the avoidance of doubt the latter qualification is not applicable here.

Before leaving this topic I should say that this definition is concerned with the construction of a vehicle and not the specific purpose to which it was being put on the occasion in question.

The appeal was allowed.

Here is a copy of the press report.
Victory in parking tickets campaign.   
By by Stephen Lloyd
January 31, 2008
A campaigner who has questioned the validity of more than 6,000 parking fines issued in Fleet town centre is celebrating a landmark decision.
A National Parking Appeals Service adjudicator has ruled that hatchback cars stopping in Fleet Road are classed as goods vehicles under controversial parking restrictions being enforced by Hart District Council.
The decision has delighted campaigner Peter Ashford, who says the parking tickets are wrongly  issued and is demanding Hart pays back thousands of pounds worth of parking fines it has issued since the restrictions came into force in May 2006.                                                    cont.   
Ground 1 cont.
Mr Ashford helped in the latest appeal made by Neil Warrington, who briefly parked in one of the Fleet Road parking bays to load a large glass fish tank into his hatchback car.
Mr Warrington was issued with a Code 23 penalty charge notice, which accused him of not having a goods vehicle.
He checked and found that the Department for Transport defines a goods vehicle as “a motor vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description”.
Mr Warrington reported this to the council and asked for his penalty charge to be cancelled.
However, Hart insisted that a goods vehicle could only be one that is taxed as a heavy goods vehicle or a light goods vehicle that is also being used for delivery purposes.
Mr Warrington appealed to the independent tribunal, which agreed with him.
The adjudicator ruled that according to the parking restrictions in Fleet Road, any multi-purpose vehicle such as estate cars, hatchbacks, 4x4s or other similar vehicles are goods vehicles constructed for the carriage of goods and that Mr Warrington was therefore not in contravention of the parking restrictions.
Mr Warrington, who lives in Windlesham, was pleased but not surprised with the decision. He told the News: “The biggest disappointment was the lack of flexibility and understanding by the council in the first place.
“This all happened back in August and I’ve got a stack of paperwork about an inch thick with all the documentation. It’s been a pain to be honest.”
Mr Warrington has since seen a number of vans and cars bearing disabled badges with parking tickets along Fleet Road. He said: “I’ve not found anybody who is happy with it, including the shopkeepers. It must be strangling them along that road to be honest. However, I understand it’s a big revenue earner for the council.”
Mr Ashford pointed out that Mr Warrington is just one of more than 6,000 motorists that have become victim of the inadequate parking signs.
He added: “It is good that he succeeded in defeating the obstructions that the council had thrown against him and that he shot down the false arguments they used to frustrate him.”
Mr Ashford said a large Transit-type van was issued a Code 23 penalty charge notice while delivering in Fleet Road a few months ago.
Van owner Ray Love, from Fleet, was furious when the parking attendant insisted it was a private vehicle rather than a goods vehicle.
His penalty charge was cancelled and he later received an apology from the council, but only after he complained.
David Simpson, Hart’s cabinet member in charge of transport, said: “Hart enforces the parking restrictions but Hampshire County Council is responsible for all the markings and everything else.
“As far as we are concerned the restrictions are legal until they tell us otherwise.”
     Clearly, in my case, the above ruling should also apply. The council does not allege that I was not loading. They merely state that my vehicle was “Parked in a place or area not designated for that type of vehicle”. My vehicle, a Vauxhall Zafira, is a hatchback vehicle and therefore falls under the same catogory as the vehicle in the above adjudication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

« Last Edit: 22 October, 2011, 04:57:18 PM by Nigel W »

Offline Kill Switch

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #18 on: 22 October, 2011, 05:04:25 PM »
Nice one Nigel, Seggsy is my brother, I'll make sure he has a read of the above.   :aplude: :aplude: :aplude:
« Last Edit: 22 October, 2011, 05:10:22 PM by Kill Switch »
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Offline peperami gsxr

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #19 on: 22 October, 2011, 05:07:45 PM »
Nice one Pep, Seggsy is my brother, I'll make sure he has a read of the above.   :aplude: :aplude: :aplude:

 :idea:Edit...nice one Nigel  :aplude:
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Offline seggsy

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #20 on: 22 October, 2011, 07:33:14 PM »
Nigel, thanks a million for this, I was absolutely sure that I was right.

There is no sign stating goods vehicle only, in fact there is no sign at all, just the box with "Loading Only" painted outside as per the traffic signs manual, so the ticket should not have been issued even if I was a saloon car.

As I drive a Vauxhall Zifira, according to the case you quoted, that is a goods vehicle anyway.

So the parking tax collector had no business putting a ticket on my car.

I am looking forward to appealing even more now. Thanks once again Nigel.
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Offline peperami gsxr

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #21 on: 22 October, 2011, 10:26:57 PM »
Seggsy is my brother.   :aplude: :aplude: :aplude:

Not another one  :rotfl: :rotfl:

Seggsy, what was the location??
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Offline Staps

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #22 on: 22 October, 2011, 11:51:31 PM »
oh yes, another one.
 

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #23 on: 23 October, 2011, 10:34:24 AM »
I don't know about Bexley, but in the Met., the guideline is 5 minutes observation for cars, and 10 minutes for vans. If no loading/unloading is seen within those times, then a PCN is issued. Your Zafira would be classed as a car.

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #24 on: 23 October, 2011, 11:49:22 AM »
I'm pretty sure that any vehicle is able to load/unload if no specific vehicle is specified on the warning sign. It would be ridiculous to expect someone to carry, say, two A4 boxes a distance of half a mile by way of an example. That is the whole point of a loading bay. I'm not sure where PATAS would stand on this second point, but you should be able to set down/pick up passengers. Whether you are carrying cargo or people, it must still amount to loading/unloading.

     
Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline DastardlyDick

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #25 on: 23 October, 2011, 12:09:05 PM »
I'm pretty sure that any vehicle is able to load/unload if no specific vehicle is specified on the warning sign. It would be ridiculous to expect someone to carry, say, two A4 boxes a distance of half a mile by way of an example. That is the whole point of a loading bay. I'm not sure where PATAS would stand on this second point, but you should be able to set down/pick up passengers. Whether you are carrying cargo or people, it must still amount to loading/unloading.

     

You're confusing two different things - loading/unloading refers to goods e.g the two boxes of A4 paper. Passengers on the other hand, alight.
 This is why some of the dodgier more zealous Councils  CCTV operators zoom in on the number plates of, for example, Taxis, so that if the ticket is contested, there is no evidence of what was actually happening when the alleged offence/contravention occured and they 'do' them for loading outside permitted hours.
As for the distance you're expected to carry stuff, I used to deliver coffee to Fortnum & Mason, the loading bay is not right outside their goods entrance (on Jermyn Street) and I was expected to move pallet loads of the stuff!!

Offline Ewan Hoosami

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #26 on: 23 October, 2011, 12:52:20 PM »
You were right the first time, more dodgier. I saw a case where the Local Government Ombudsman criticised a council for zooming in on a Taxi number plate while passengers were getting out. I can't find it now but I think it was Wastemonster, surprise, surprise. Your Fortnum and Mason example is, unfortunately, all too common. In and around towns and cities, shopkeepers, solicitors, publicans, etc are basically being denied reasonable access to their premises. The Council's advice is always; "Don't park incorrectly and you won't have a problem." Why, thank you for the advice. I wish I'd have thought of that. You've been most helpful. I wonder if we could swap places for a week. While you're getting pallets from the van to the loading bay I shall park in my free parking bay and spew sanctimonious rhetoric in your general direction. At the end of the week we might both have a grasp on the fact that not everyone has a free choice of compliant parking.   :bashy:
Appealing to the council is like playing chess with a pigeon. You might be a chess grand master but the pigeon will always knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and then strut around triumphantly.

Offline Staps

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #27 on: 23 October, 2011, 01:10:05 PM »
One thing this sort of thing does is get more recruits to the NoToMoB. It's all a F*&King Con. £60 for dropping off a box or a person, I read this and start getting all wound up again. Thank F*^K for the NoToMoB and its allies

Offline seggsy

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #28 on: 23 October, 2011, 04:37:52 PM »
I don't know about Bexley, but in the Met., the guideline is 5 minutes observation for cars, and 10 minutes for vans. If no loading/unloading is seen within those times, then a PCN is issued. Your Zafira would be classed as a car.

I wasn't given the ticket for loading or unloading or being in the bay for what they consider too long. I was given it for being a in a place not designated for my class of vehicle. There is no information, painted on the road or on a sign, qualifying what vehicle can park there, therefore any vehicle can use the place. In Nigel's very helpful post a precedent has already been set that my type of vehicle, a Vauxhall Zafira is classed as a goods vehicle so even if there was a goods vehicle sign I still had the right to park there.

I will win the appeal

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Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Bexley Honey Pot Locations
« Reply #29 on: 23 October, 2011, 05:54:53 PM »
I don't know about Bexley, but in the Met., the guideline is 5 minutes observation for cars, and 10 minutes for vans. If no loading/unloading is seen within those times, then a PCN is issued. Your Zafira would be classed as a car.

I wasn't given the ticket for loading or unloading or being in the bay for what they consider too long. I was given it for being a in a place not designated for my class of vehicle. There is no information, painted on the road or on a sign, qualifying what vehicle can park there, therefore any vehicle can use the place. In Nigel's very helpful post a precedent has already been set that my type of vehicle, a Vauxhall Zafira is classed as a goods vehicle so even if there was a goods vehicle sign I still had the right to park there.

I will win the appeal



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