Author Topic: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road  (Read 5392 times)

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Offline Darcus

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Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« on: 29 February, 2012, 06:06:49 PM »
Hello all,

I have currently been fighting Camden Council over a PCN issued for

''Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (no motor vehicles)''

at this notorious lobster trap created by inadequate and confusing signage at this location. My case unfortunately resulted in Camden Council's bailiffs removing my vehicle, which I had transferred previously to my company as I use it for my work. They have held onto it for over 8 months now due to the following reasons:

1. They required proof of ownership in the form of the V5 document and my insurance details.
Both of these requests are bogus as they are fully aware that the V5 doc, since August 2010, only shows the 'registered keeper' and the insurance details don't prove anything. Even though this has been pointed out to them they would prefer to look incompetent than devious, even when asked by Emily Thornberry, shadow Attorney General, who is dealing with other cases relating to this location.

2. Task Enforcement stated that the vehicle was 'bound' to them on issue of the Warrant of Execution.
This is untrue as my vehicle is exempt under County Court rules as it is a vehicle used in the course of my self employed business. I have checked this and it seems the rules for collection of Council Tax are the same for all County Court bailiff actions.

Fortunately, as the bailiffs/Council have been too scared to sell the vehicle, it seems I am able to reclaim it as 'Abandonment of Distraint' (many thanks to Sheila at www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk), but as the vehicle has been in storage for over months and was fully working and taxed and MOT'd when they took it I am not in a position to receive it back until they pay compensation for loss of earnings, damage and loss of use of vehicle.

There are numerous points of argument in the way the Council operated by for now I just want to put forward one piece of information that I located on another site. It is a PATAS ruling, stating that the signage at the location was incorrect and therefore tickets issued are unenforceable. Initially I thought it was in relation to the signage at the Camley St junction and therefore not relevant to my situation, the approach from Pancras Road, but now I am so sure, so I'm going to get further information. If it applies to both signs stating 'except taxis' then all tickets issued here should be void, and will show that Camden where knowingly issuing tickets in the same way as the situation with the 'tampered' sign that was moved yet they failed to rectify for a further six weeks.

There are numerous other details which may be relevant and I will post more up when I get the chance. One issue is that the bailiff knowingly added £200 to the statute fees and when asked to provide a breakdown of the charges by myself and the shadow Attorney General Camden avoided providing them and miraculously reduced the fees to the statutory limit, stating it was an offer of reduction. How kind of them. When also asked to provide the bailiffs certification, Matthew Little (Parking Services Manager) forgot his legal requirements and provided only his ID card. Again, despite being asked numerous times by both myself and the SAG Emily Thornberry MP. The reason for asking was that the bailiff in question is not certified with Task Enforcement, but with his own company. I would like to know if sub-contracting is allowed.   

I'm also curious to know if all of Camden's spy cars are legal too, as I noticed they only have the words 'CAMDEN CCTV' on them, which isn't a clear identification. I do recall reading specification details for devices, which I am sure included something in relation to vehicle markings. I'll try and find it, but if anyone else can assist that would be helpful.


That's it for the moment, any comments would be welcome. I can provide information that may help others too (I have numerous correspondence and recorded phone calls with Camden Parking Services) and will be sharing knowledge with Emily Thornberry to assist others and myself.

I'll keep you updated.



Best wishes


Darcus
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining

Offline BGB

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #1 on: 29 February, 2012, 06:20:59 PM »
Welcome Darcus

The are some members of the NoToMob who are experts on bailiffs etc who I,am sure will be glad to assist you. 

In the meantime, the fact that the original penalty is flawed is useful.

Do you have the PaTAS appeal number?

Did you appeal yourself?

BGB
« Last Edit: 29 February, 2012, 06:25:32 PM by BGB »

Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #2 on: 29 February, 2012, 06:49:34 PM »
Thanks for the info Darcus. We have just woken up to this particular issue and are trying to get enforcement of a bus lane in Hemel Hempstead shut down on the same grounds.

And we know of several other instances where enforcement authorities have been enforcing these signs too. :-ev-:

We will be looking into the $camera cars shortly and will report any of our findings here. Our first cursory glance at Camden has revealed that they may have been very naughty indeed. Only time and a lot of research will tell though.
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Offline BGB

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #3 on: 29 February, 2012, 07:20:55 PM »
Looking at google maps, I do not know if the signs shown are current.

However, how can you have "No motor vehicles" "except taxis and cycles"??? :o

Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #4 on: 29 February, 2012, 07:31:51 PM »
 :idea: I have photos of the tampered signs if they of any use to you Darcus.
« Last Edit: 29 February, 2012, 08:03:00 PM by Pat Pending »
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

Offline Darcus

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #5 on: 01 March, 2012, 03:44:52 AM »
The PATAS ruling is not mine, but was passed in September last year for the alleged contravention occurring in about October 2010. My PCN was issued 10.12.2010. I have correspondence from about April/May last year from Camden that states no signs had been changed since July 2010, so I would think they are still there. I'm going to check the dates of when Camden were made aware of the signs being illegal (as outlined in the ruling) i.e. at what point prior to the hearing was the argument put forward. If they were told then as professionals they would be aware of the fact and also if they haven't changed them then they are again knowingly fining people without justification - the same as they did with the tampered signs when it is said they continued for a further 6 weeks.

If someone who understands these things can check the TSRGD and confirm, then all PCNs at this location would be illegally issued.

The reason I didn't think this ruling would help me was because I thought I had been done for an illegal right turn, not a prohibition on certain types of vehicle. I am loathe to concede on a technicality, but I guess it would be ok. My contention was that the signage on the approach part of Pancras Road just before the underpass was confusing and I'm sure I saw a sign saying 'Road Ahead Closed' which to me meant Midland Road. Truth is, I'm sure they have done everything possible to trap people here and given the amount of tickets they issued surely they would have been required to place a CCTV notification sign. Also I'm sure that having a CCTV car there at midnight on a Sunday doesn't conform to the regulations in regards to the reason for it being there.

Thanks Pat Pending, I'm not sure which signs you are talking about. If it's the ground sign saying 'Diversion' which were left till the end of November 2010, then I have already seen them and they, unfortunately, don't apply to me as I was done 10 days later, after they were moved back. If not then yes definitely.
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Offline Darcus

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #6 on: 01 March, 2012, 04:07:37 AM »
Ok, I've found it:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_039

Diagram 619 'Permitted Variants: NONE'

The only difference with the google image is that the additional signs says 'Except Taxis and Cycles' whilst it now only says 'Except Taxis'.

Again, if I could get some additional thoughts just so I can super sure. But I have to say, I think we got them good and proper just on this. Although I still say they've committed a whole rake of other offenses here.
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Offline The Bald Eagle

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #7 on: 01 March, 2012, 10:47:33 AM »
Check out this thread Darcus. I believe the legal aspect of the 619 sign with the exception plate is fully covered in the letter I sent yesterday.

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php/topic,1817.0.html
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Offline Pat Pending

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Re: Camden Camley St/Pancras Road
« Reply #8 on: 01 March, 2012, 11:00:01 AM »
All of my Photos were taken on the 24/10/2010
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Beer in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up,  totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO, what a  ride!!"

 


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